DAC > power amp | no pre-amp

dhansak

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Good afternoon everyone!

I wondered how many wammers out there were using a DAC (with variable output) direct into a power amp as their digital system?

My second system has a USB DAC connected to an old Arcam A85 and I recently switched the amp to power amp only mode and connected that way, using roon to set the volume out of my DAC. In this particular case I think I prefer the sound this way.

I am asking the question because I am curious:

If you had a set budget to spend on a digital system with only one source (a DAC) then would you theoretically achieve a better sound if you only had to buy a power amp?

Who is doing this? What is your experience?
 

ROOG

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Absolutely @dhansak, I have a Naim NAP 300DR power amp and I have it connected directly from the unbalanced analogue output of my RME ADI-2 DAC fs. The RME acts as DAC, EQ , simple room correction and Volume control with no issues and a lot less cost, space and noise than a Naim Preamp being in the chain.

If you do need an analogue input for a particular source component, the RME ADI-2 DAC 'Pro' variant can handle one analogue input. I find that the RME DAC works very well despite what some avid Naim supporters might say. (The NAP 250 or 300 is just a power amp people, they used to sell it into the broadcast market for just that type of use, with no Naim pre amps in sight) and if your DAC has the necessary low impedance analogue output drive circuits (Naim pre amps are circa 20 ohms) and quality volume control, as many do, there should be no issue.

As you have found @dhansak it is not too difficult to try.

Is it better? well there is one less item of equipment in the signal chain to mess with the signal I guess.

Since the advent of digital streaming I haven't found much use for an analogue pre amp.
 
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DomT

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I have tried both ways (with and without preamp) for nearfield low volume listening. I prefer with a preamp but I find that a) it depends on the preamp used b) it depends on the DAC and power amp used and c) it’s often different rather than ‘better’ or ‘worse’ and down to preference.

I remember delivering my wonderful Audio Research VS115 power amp to the buyers home. I was shocked to see that he intended to use an Audiolab transport directly into the power amp. I wanted the sale so didn’t say a word.
 

Jezzer

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My Hegel HD30 is a dual mono DAC and digital pre-amp which I connect directly to my Bel Canto Ref1000m mono-blocks. As ROOG says, it’s one less component in the signal chain… but as DomT says it depends on the pre-amp (the Hegel is a true digital pre-amp as it has eight digital inputs it appears that they’ve spent some time and effort on the volume control). I find that the sound is incredibly transparent so smooth recordings are smooth and bright recordings are bright. Listening to Dave Brubeck now and he (and his quartet) are sounding mighty fine.

… I used to have an Audiolab CDQ DAC/CD/pre and the pre-amp wasn’t so good…
 
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ROOG

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It is important that the DAC has the necessary drive capabilities for your power amp, there is much spoken about the impedance ratio that is generally considered acceptable between the low impedance output of the preceding equipment and the relatively high impedance input of the power amp being served, i'll not repeat it here, and that the DAC has sufficient output voltage to drive the power amp to full power, if required!

If a pre amp is adding something else like 'colour' to the partnership then I would wonder why this is necessary?

If you like what this does, I'll not argue, similarly if you find the direct from DAC presentation 'lacking something' those are your findings too.

In my case, If (and I really can't be sure of this), years of my conforming with 'Naim protocol' that "you must use this with that and connected by the other" has possibly left me with a taste for an 'exaggerated sound' (sorry I can't define it in words) since switching (2 years ago) to what I think is a more neutral sound of the direct DAC connection I have happily adopted this as being my 'New Normal', if there was actually any notable change at all as this could all be a figment of my mind!
 
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DomT

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If a pre amp is adding something else like 'colour' to the partnership then I would wonder why this is necessary?

If you like what this does, I'll not argue, similarly if you find the direct from DAC presentation 'lacking something' those are your findings too.
There are some DACs that sound bleached and unnatural or too ragged or forward and a preamp can help with this. Or sometimes it’s something else like the music is flat because of a technical mismatch. That’s why so don’t think that there is just one conclusion as there are too many variables.
 
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Rockchild

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I did use my Copland DAC on my power amp for a while before I moved. The Copland had a dedicated pre built in with a decent valve based output stage. It was great but not all are as good.

54068E86-C4B3-4353-80BD-C526BFAFB47A.jpeg
 

karlsushi

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I use a Chord DAVE direct into my power amp and to my ears, it is significantly better than using it as a fixed output DAC via a preamp. In the case of a highly revealing DAC like a DAVE, it seems any preamp will colour the sound to some degree (in my experience anyway).

I find that to the detriment of the music, but YMMV.

But as others have mentioned, not all internal DAC volume implementations are created equal. Chord and a handful of others have worked out how to do it properly, but I would be wary of some DACs which compress bits when they use their internal DAC chip volume adjustment.

Then there are some DACs which use an analogue volume control, which for all intents and purposes is a preamp and a DAC in one box.

If implemented properly though, I have found DAC straight into amp the best way to go and there is no going back for me now, but I have long held the belief that the perfect preamp is no preamp.
 

karlsushi

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Not having to buy an expensive pre-amp certainly makes these DACs stack up a bit better from a value perspective!
Exactly how I approached my purchase of the DAVE. Some may baulk at the idea of spending that much on a DAC, but when you consider it serves the purpose of a preamp and a decent headphone amp to boot, it starts to make more sense.

I have never owned a DAC, preamp, headamp combo that comes close to that one unit in terms of SQ.

As an aside, I've got my eye on something like the Metrum Adagio or PS Audio DirectStream for my living room system. No need for a headamp in that system and I read that those two are other examples of internal DAC volume controls done properly. I'm sure there must be more.
 
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JamieMcC

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I also use my Dave as pre and volume control works superbly.

The annoying thing that I find is you can only connect digital sources if you need analogue input for a turntable, tape or other source not digital you still need the traditional pre with those inputs.
 
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Jezzer

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The annoying thing that I find is you can only connect digital sources if you need analogue input for a turntable, tape or other source not digital you still need the traditional pre with those inputs.
That’s the only drawback in my view. I had considered getting a turntable but not having analogue inputs ended those thoughts!
 

DomT

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Exactly how I approached my purchase of the DAVE. Some may baulk at the idea of spending that much on a DAC, but when you consider it serves the purpose of a preamp and a decent headphone amp to boot, it starts to make more sense.

I have never owned a DAC, preamp, headamp combo that comes close to that one unit in terms of SQ.

As an aside, I've got my eye on something like the Metrum Adagio or PS Audio DirectStream for my living room system. No need for a headamp in that system and I read that those two are other examples of internal DAC volume controls done properly. I'm sure there must be more.
I remember hearing Fourleg’s Dave at his house and I made the comment that his system didn’t sound like it lacked a preamp (Nick’s Dave went straight to his power amps).

So as always just depends. I use cassette and a turntable so it’s helpful that in my case I prefer my preamp in the chain! Must make sure that I don’t actually do a home demo of a Dave.
 

quinn_t

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I also use my Dave as pre and volume control works superbly.

The annoying thing that I find is you can only connect digital sources if you need analogue input for a turntable, tape or other source not digital you still need the traditional pre with those inputs.
Linn Klimax DSM/3 can deal with both digital and analog sources.
 
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listenup

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My Esoteric Dac (D-05) is said to have a good variable output, certainly easy to listen to direct to a power amp which I did for some years. When a small bel canto pre was added between the two, it sounded better to me and had more volume steps that allowed exactly the right volume to be set, and for me that was the clincher.

Having no pre-amp is probably very system dependent and results cannot necessarily be predicted.
 
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Warszawa

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That’s the only drawback in my view. I had considered getting a turntable but not having analogue inputs ended those thoughts!
Passive pre-amps are your friend here. That's how I added a turntable when I was using a Hugo TT as a DAC pre. I set the MFA pre-amp to 12 o'clock and continued to use the Hugo remote. Barely altered the sound, if at all.
 

longplayer

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That’s the only drawback in my view. I had considered getting a turntable but not having analogue inputs ended those thoughts!
For exactly that reason I'm wondering whether a digitising phono preamp might be the answer for the odd vinyl spin (for old time's sake or if the music is just available on streaming). The Puffin is probably the best known, but I was wondering whether either the NAD or Rega A2D phono boxes (I just posted that question @gerlando ) could be coaxed into delivering, if good rather than top-tier vinyl playback is the goal.
 
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Jezzer

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So maybe I over-simplified a tad with my answer. 🙂

An A2D phono box had crossed my mind but not a passive pre-amp. I’ve been dwelling on the subject a bit actually - it will also mean getting my TV onto the wall to make space for the turntable and additional box (and getting a bigger TV as it will now be on the wall).
 

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