Digital input Loudspeaker Croosover / Management Unit

bencat

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I am thinking due to the return of some units and the fact that I now have some additional power amplifiers of moving my stacked KEF 103 speakers from the current two way to a three way . Using a MiniDSP DDRC22D unit I have the application of DIRAC Live covered and can use this to get a digital output signal that will have all DIRAC filters applied.

Now I need a Digital Three Way crossover unit and looking round there is no that much in the way of an option . Lots of Digital Crossovers or Digital Loudspeaker Management units that will give me the six out I need but most only have an analogue in which I am not able to supply (would prefer the signal to be in the digital domain as long as possible .

The only one I have been able to find is the Behringer unit below which seems to suggest that one of the XLR inputs can be made an AES/EBU digital input. I think both Keith and Colin use these units or have used them can you confirm that they will accept a digital input ? Would also like to know if they can be controlled via a PC plugged in to the unit rather than the settings boxes on the front .


Behringer DCX2496 Ultradrive Pro


If anyone knows of any other make that also accepts a digital input then can you also let me know which one and will do the research on them . Thanks in advance for any help .

 

greybeard

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Hi Andrew, firstly it's good to have the Wam back, felt lost yesterday!

I do use a DCX 2496 lite, which unfortunately does not have the AES/EBU input, or PC control. But I believe you are correct in that the DCX Ultra Pro  does have a single AES/EBU input. 

This is from their advertising info :

The Ultradrive Pro DCX2496 features 3 analog inputs (one suitable as a digital stereo AES/EBU input) and 6 analog outputs. You get maximum flexibility in just one rack space. Superb high-end AKM® 24-bit/96 kHz A/D and D/A converters give you ultimate signal integrity and an extreme dynamic range of 113 dB. Easy connection of external digital signals with sampling rates from 32 to 96 kHz is a breeze with the integrated sample rate converter.

The future-proof Ultradrive Pro software enables single or multi remote control via PC through RS-232 and RS-485 interfaces. And the link option via RS-485 network interface enables cascading of several Ultradrive Pros. A Windows®-based editing software is available for download free of charge. No matter what the future brings, its open architecture assures easy software updates. The servo-balanced, gold-plated XLR connectors for all inputs and outputs guarantee excellent connectivity for the years to come.

The lite version again does not have the ability to connect to a PC through RS 232 or 485 interfaces, so again I can not give you any personal experience with this either. So not really alot of help :(  

 
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robbie010

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I am thinking due to the return of some units and the fact that I now have some additional power amplifiers of moving my stacked KEF 103 speakers from the current two way to a three way . Using a MiniDSP DDRC22D unit I have the application of DIRAC Live covered and can use this to get a digital output signal that will have all DIRAC filters applied.

Now I need a Digital Three Way crossover unit and looking round there is no that much in the way of an option . Lots of Digital Crossovers or Digital Loudspeaker Management units that will give me the six out I need but most only have an analogue in which I am not able to supply (would prefer the signal to be in the digital domain as long as possible .

The only one I have been able to find is the Behringer unit below which seems to suggest that one of the XLR inputs can be made an AES/EBU digital input. I think both Keith and Colin use these units or have used them can you confirm that they will accept a digital input ? Would also like to know if they can be controlled via a PC plugged in to the unit rather than the settings boxes on the front .


Behringer DCX2496 Ultradrive Pro


If anyone knows of any other make that also accepts a digital input then can you also let me know which one and will do the research on them . Thanks in advance for any help .
My recent research in to 3 way active crossovers led me to these:

https://www.hypex.nl/product/fusionamp-fa123/154

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/2-x-in-8-x-out

The 2x8 kit can be bought with a digital input add on, as well as a volume pot, there is also an enclosure available.

I ended going with the Fusion Plate amp.

Best of luck!

 
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bencat

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Thanks Robbie but once you add the digital in , USB input , Enclosure the MiniDSP comes to $520 . You can buy the MiniDSP 4-10 units ready built with digital in for $499 but again this seems very high for just a digital crossover . Hopefully now the forum is back and working either Keith or Colin will advise on the Behringer unit and anyone else who reads this can offer any alternative suggestions .

 

MF 1000

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My DCX ultra drive pro unit is on its way back to me Andrew ....I’ll have a look at it to see if it will accept digital input etc

 

Tony_J

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Hi Andrew - an alternative would be to stick your fave DAC on the output of the DDRC-22 and then use an analogue 3-way crossover (as per the recent discussion in another thread). There is a Behringer CX3400 that would do the job - I picked up a used one for £45 recently on the 'bay (list is around £80 anyway) but have yet to wire it up to see how it performs. There's also the DBX 234 Xs which looks to have a similar spec - available from Thomann for £155. 

 

bencat

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Thanks all lots to think about . Colin no problem appreciate that the unit you use does not extend to what i need. Tony yes I can see that adding a DAC between the DDRC 22D would let me use an analogue output but this just adds another box and conversion to the chain which I would prefer to avoid then again if I am not able to find a solution it may be the road i need to go down . Keith if you could check the option for me and confirm that the DCX Ultra Drive Pro will accept a Digital signal then that would be great . There are units on sale for around £150 and under so not really too bad .

Robbie as mentioned above MiniDSP do offer a solution but in the UK or Europe it runs to be quite expensive and I think I would prefer the below option as it does not require me to construct and complete the build which would be worrying with my level of skills .

 
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Tony_J

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Tony yes I can see that adding a DAC between the DDRC 22D would let me use an analogue output but this just adds another box and conversion to the chain
Hi Andrew - I would agree that it adds an extra box (the DAC) but it doesn't really increase the number of conversions, just changes which are done in the digital domain and which in the analogue domain - the major difference, to me at least, is that one solution has a digital crossover, the other analogue; I have no idea (yet!) what difference that might make in terms of the end result though, which is one of the reasons I wanted to give the CX3400 a go. Also, bear in mind that with a solution like the DCX you are limited to using whatever DACs Behringer have chosen to use in their output stages.  To the extent that you believe all DACs sound the same, that may or may not be an issue.

 
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bencat

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Well just to confirm a DDRC 22 D that I sent for repair to MiniDSP on 17/07/2020 finally arrived with them on 07/11/2020 . I honestly had given up and accepted the unit was lost but it has now been repaired. They sent it back to me by DHL on Friday and it arrived today . Ecellent service by them and DHL really slow service by Parcel Force but I am thankful at least that I now have the unit back in one piece again .

Now the fun and games can begin I can stick the DDRC 22D in a number of systems and just see what happens , but this is what I plan to use in the active system so that I can try out a full three way . I have the DDRC 22 , I have spare power amps to use just for now and I think if a nice cheap analogue crossover comes up like the Behringer CX3400 comes along I will buy it and just use and see what happens . Just as a first step guidance currently the BASS/MID units crossover to the tweeter at 3000 Hz what sort of level should i use for the lower bass units to leave the other unit with the Mid all I need is a start fogure and then I can lower or higher the cr point by ear to see which one works best .

 

Tony_J

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Well just to confirm a DDRC 22 D that I sent for repair to MiniDSP on 17/07/2020 finally arrived with them on 07/11/2020 . I honestly had given up and accepted the unit was lost but it has now been repaired. They sent it back to me by DHL on Friday and it arrived today . Ecellent service by them and DHL really slow service by Parcel Force but I am thankful at least that I now have the unit back in one piece again .

Now the fun and games can begin I can stick the DDRC 22D in a number of systems and just see what happens , but this is what I plan to use in the active system so that I can try out a full three way . I have the DDRC 22 , I have spare power amps to use just for now and I think if a nice cheap analogue crossover comes up like the Behringer CX3400 comes along I will buy it and just use and see what happens . Just as a first step guidance currently the BASS/MID units crossover to the tweeter at 3000 Hz what sort of level should i use for the lower bass units to leave the other unit with the Mid all I need is a start fogure and then I can lower or higher the cr point by ear to see which one works best .
I've been running my 3-way with bass-to-mids crossing over at 300 Hz. The mid-to-high crossover is a bit lower than yours at 2000 Hz - but that will depend on what your mids and tweeters are capable of.

 

bencat

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Hi Tony the data sheet for the KEF Tweeters is very specific that the crossover point has to be a minimum of 3000 Hz which is what I have kept too . As the both sets of Bass drivers B200 SP1039 units are identical then I just need to set the lower one to a decent level that will deal with the low bass and this should in theory let the other driver deal with the mid bass to treble area that bit easier. I can use the 300 Hz figure you suggest as a start point and see how it sounds . As I have never done this before and as the two Bass units each side are identical should I expect deeper bass than my current setup with the drivers doing the same job so one just reinforcing the other ? Or is it more likely the sound will stay the same but perhaps the speed and texture of the bass will increase as both units are doinf much less work . I appreciate it will be different in your case as you are doing the mid with a different drive unit more dedicated to the mid range than my use of drivers with a foot in both camps .

So long as it does not make things sound worse , good thing is that I can go back to the current set up if I need to . All that will be lost will be my time which at this moment is cheap .

 

Tony_J

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Hi Tony the data sheet for the KEF Tweeters is very specific that the crossover point has to be a minimum of 3000 Hz which is what I have kept too . As the both sets of Bass drivers B200 SP1039 units are identical then I just need to set the lower one to a decent level that will deal with the low bass and this should in theory let the other driver deal with the mid bass to treble area that bit easier. I can use the 300 Hz figure you suggest as a start point and see how it sounds . As I have never done this before and as the two Bass units each side are identical should I expect deeper bass than my current setup with the drivers doing the same job so one just reinforcing the other ? Or is it more likely the sound will stay the same but perhaps the speed and texture of the bass will increase as both units are doinf much less work . I appreciate it will be different in your case as you are doing the mid with a different drive unit more dedicated to the mid range than my use of drivers with a foot in both camps .

So long as it does not make things sound worse , good thing is that I can go back to the current set up if I need to . All that will be lost will be my time which at this moment is cheap .
Hi Andrew - in that case, definitely stick with the 3000 Hz for the top end.

Actually, my setup is closer to yours than you might think - the mid driver is the 8" cone of the 2-way Dual Concentric driver that also houses the tweeter, and in some of Tannoy's offerings it serves as a mid/bass in a 2-way configuration, just as the 8" drivers do in your Kefs do. I have added two 8" units each side to take care of the bottom end and restricted the DC 8" cone to just midrange duties. (The added bass units are actually very similar in performance to the DC unit - in fact if you were to rip out the dust cap and fit a tweeter unit in the back of the magnet you would end up with a working DC driver.) So what you will end up with is very similar to what I have, apart from the fact that I have doubled up on the bass drivers. The logic for me was that splitting off the low bass would give me a cleaner midrange - which I think it has done - and doubling up on the bass drivers would give more cone area so less cone excursion for the same output. 

I would be very surprised if you don't get an improvement - my guess is that restricting the mids to the upper 8" driver will give you a cleaner midrange and also improve imaging, because you then won't have 2 drivers which are separated by a fair distance and both outputting the midrange signal. Not sure what effect it will have on bass extension though.

 

bencat

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Thanks for that Tony all these little steps and additions of knowledge help me to make my way forward . I will have to wait but in truth the sound currently is so clear and detailed as it is that improving it could be quite scary . If I can maintain the current balance and clarity and perhaps add a little more weight and speed to the bass then that would be a very positive result in my eyes . In fact even if I can just maintain what I have but be aware that all of the drivers are being much less stressed would be good enough . Starting to get itchy fingers now to try something but need to sit on that until I can do the sensible thing and get the crossover unit sorted .

 

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Finally got around to cabling up the CX3400 - so I now have Pi 4 with Digi Hat -> DDRC-24 (using only one pair of outputs) -> CX3400 configured for 3 channel stereo. There's a very slight increase in background noise relative to the previous config (which used a secondary miniDSP 2X4 Balanced to split the second pair of DDRC outputs into mids and bass), but we're talking a difference that is apparent only if you shove your lug-hole right up against the drivers, so not an issue. I've done a quick-and-dirty configuration, using the original crossover points mapped across to the CX3400 and keeping the other PEQ adjustments that I had made in the DDRC 24, also using the previous Dirac settings, and it all sounds pretty much as it should. Obviously I would ideally need to run the Dirac config again to get it properly fettled, but first impressions are favourable, i.e., at least as good as the performance with the previous configuration.

 
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Tony_J

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Finally got around to cabling up the CX3400 - so I now have Pi 4 with Digi Hat -> DDRC-24 (using only one pair of outputs) -> CX3400 configured for 3 channel stereo. There's a very slight increase in background noise relative to the previous config (which used a secondary miniDSP 2X4 Balanced to split the second pair of DDRC outputs into mids and bass), but we're talking a difference that is apparent only if you shove your lug-hole right up against the drivers, so not an issue. I've done a quick-and-dirty configuration, using the original crossover points mapped across to the CX3400 and keeping the other PEQ adjustments that I had made in the DDRC 24, also using the previous Dirac settings, and it all sounds pretty much as it should. Obviously I would ideally need to run the Dirac config again to get it properly fettled, but first impressions are favourable, i.e., at least as good as the performance with the previous configuration.
Did a bit of more critical measurement with the CX3400 yesterday - turns out that there is something like a 6dB level difference between the bass channel outputs, which is rather less than ideal, so I have reverted to the original cascaded miniDSP setup. I could have adjusted the channels individually to fix the problem but that isn't ideal. I shall keep a lookout for a DBX unit and see if that is any better. May just be a duff CX unit of course...

 

newlash09

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I am thinking due to the return of some units and the fact that I now have some additional power amplifiers of moving my stacked KEF 103 speakers from the current two way to a three way . Using a MiniDSP DDRC22D unit I have the application of DIRAC Live covered and can use this to get a digital output signal that will have all DIRAC filters applied.

Now I need a Digital Three Way crossover unit and looking round there is no that much in the way of an option . Lots of Digital Crossovers or Digital Loudspeaker Management units that will give me the six out I need but most only have an analogue in which I am not able to supply (would prefer the signal to be in the digital domain as long as possible .

The only one I have been able to find is the Behringer unit below which seems to suggest that one of the XLR inputs can be made an AES/EBU digital input. I think both Keith and Colin use these units or have used them can you confirm that they will accept a digital input ? Would also like to know if they can be controlled via a PC plugged in to the unit rather than the settings boxes on the front .


Behringer DCX2496 Ultradrive Pro


If anyone knows of any other make that also accepts a digital input then can you also let me know which one and will do the research on them . Thanks in advance for any help .
Hi sir :)

I've been reading up a lot lately about a reasonably priced active 3 way digital crossover with both digital inputs as well as analogue inputs. And the dbx venue 360, hasn't had a bad word said about it so far. Iam convinced enough to buy and try one for myself next summer. It will be fed from a minidsp SHD,  so I will be running dirac on that. However, please bear in mind, that the venue 360 is a fit and forget system, and does not have any volume control. So we wither have to use digital volume from a streamer that has one. Or feed a preamp into its analogue inputs. 

It seems to come with a very easy to use app to contorl all the functions in real time, like crossover points etc.

The only downside that I've come across so far, is the possibility of fan noise when it is driven real hard. And trying to replace the internal fans it seems is not a very straight forward process. But I plan on disconnecting the cooling fans and leaving the top panel open with a acrylic cover with vent openings in it, as I've already done similar with my psaudio power regenrator, without melting it down so far :)

Just thought I'd share my 2 cents.

 
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