High output moving coil

JamieMcC

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After a bit of advice please I've been experiencing slowly increasing distortion recently with vinyl play back on my Thorens TD 125 with sme 3009 series 2 improved arm and despite copious amounts of fiddling and trying to get everything spot on it looks sadly like I'm going to have to accept my 9 year old Jico SAS1 stylus I have fitted in a vintage MM magnesium Cambridge P77 cart is on its last legs.

I guess two choices retip maybe or new Jico SAS1 if I can find one the Jico web site shows all versions boron, sapphire and ruby cantilever options as currently sold out

Or as my tube phono has 50dB of gain I'm also considering trying a high output moving coil and looking for recommendations to research up on.

Any suggestions or pointers in that direction greatly appreciated

Cheers Jamie
 
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Rockchild

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Hi Jamie
I assume that your phonostage is a MM only? If so, yes the gain is quite high considering the average is about 42dB but personally, I would consider another MM. Things have come a long way in recent years and I would consider models from Audio Technica for your arm. What budget are you thinking?
 

smithy27

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Aftetvs bit of advice please I've been experiencing slowly increasing distortion recently with vinyl play back on my Thorens TD 125 with sme 3009 series 2 improved arm and despite copious amounts of fiddling and trying to get everything spot on it looks sadly like I'm going to have to accept my 9 year old Jico SAS1 stylus I have fitted in a vintage MM magnesium Cambridge P77 cart is on its last legs.

I guess two choices retip maybe or new Jico SAS1 if I can find one the Jico web site shows all versions boron, sapphire and ruby cantilever options as currently sold out

Or as my tube phono has 50dB of gain I'm also considering trying a high output moving coil and looking for recommendations to research up on.

Any suggestions or pointers in that direction greatly appreciated

Cheers Jamie
Hana. Sounds wonderful
 
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Lurch

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@JamieMcC I have a spare C77, E77 and P77 stylus (originals) and some standard bodies as I use an Mg body for my P77. PM me and we can sort something.
If you want to modern then an AT95ML Is a good equivalent, also I believe Expert Stylus can retip a P77.
 
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lazycat

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I liked the Sumiko BPS - I had 2 a long while ago. They would probably lack detail compared with a SAS stylus tho'. Elliptical vs SAS.

I was close to buying a Dynavector 10x mk2 last year. Sounded pretty fine, but I changed my phono amp and I'm even happier with my 2M Black now.

I recommend a listen to the Dyna if poss.
 
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JamieMcC

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@Lurch thanks, you have reminded me that I did have the original fitted prior to fitting the Jico SAS I will have a hunt and see if I can find it I am pretty sure it went back in its box but that was 9 years ago! If not I will give you a pm re a possible original P77 stylus which will get me going again in the interim.

The Mg P77 micro ridge SAS with boron cantilever was a nice combination a revelation really compared to the stock P77 cart.
In the past I have run it against a Denon DL103 and a Shure V15 MK III but always preferred the P77 SAS combo.

I guess budget wise sub £500 would be ideal but maybe a little more if I can talk the misses around to the idea its a Christmas present for myself.

Thanks all for the feedback and suggestions so far looks like I have a bit of googling to do.
 
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rabski

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IMHO and IME, either get a better moving magnet cartridge or get a low-output MC and a step-up transformer/head amp/different phono stage.

HOMC carts are a compromise, because the coil windings make them closer to a moving magnet really, and without the ability to replace the stylus. Sort of 'worst of both worlds'.
 

JamieMcC

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Hi Jamie
I assume that your phonostage is a MM only? If so, yes the gain is quite high considering the average is about 42dB but personally, I would consider another MM. Things have come a long way in recent years and I would consider models from Audio Technica for your arm. What budget are you thinking?

Yes my phono is MM only, it was a labour of love and meant to be my end game phono a hot rodded Bottlehead Eros lots of nice goodies inside Kiwame resistors, film foil cathode capacitors, full hand matched Teflon RIAA stage and Duelund Cast Copper output caps running Nos Telefunken ef86 chrome plate tubes.

I've experimented with a couple of different makes of step up transformers in the past with the Denon DL103 and also a solid state battery powered jfet step up device which I preferred to the step up transformers but just not as much as the SAS in P77 in a MM cart.

Budget at the mo as per previous post I will have a look at the Audio Technica MM options thanks
 
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JamieMcC

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@rabski thanks will keep your comments in mind. I've not really paid any attention to the cart world options as have essentially been very happy with how things were sounding so lots of catching up to do on my part
 

rabski

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The 'problem' is that in our world of lunacy, £500 is only really sniffing round the edges of the point at which moving coil really starts to make a sizeable difference. And to do it justice, a decent step-up or head amp will add that, or more. In the vast majority of cases, unless you strike lucky a cheap step-up sounds like a cheap step-up.

The necessity for really good materials and winding techniques, plus appropriate shielding, does not come cheap. On the bright side, moving magnets are, as @Rockchild says, a lot different (better) to most of the older ones.
 

JamieMcC

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The 'problem' is that in our world of lunacy, £500 is only really sniffing round the edges of the point at which moving coil really starts to make a sizeable difference. And to do it justice, a decent step-up or head amp will add that, or more. In the vast majority of cases, unless you strike lucky a cheap step-up sounds like a cheap step-up.

The necessity for really good materials and winding techniques, plus appropriate shielding, does not come cheap. On the bright side, moving magnets are, as @Rockchild says, a lot different (better) to most of the older ones.

Yes it's a crazy pastime and agree on sniffing round the edges lol. Most of my listening is via streaming now and have spent silly money on my digital front end but still get a lot of enjoyment listening to my records so need to trim my cloth accordingly for now.
 

Von Krolock

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More to consider Jamie - the Audio Note IQ series of moving magnets are often recommended and they are very good.
They're based on the Goldring 1000 series with a bit of fettling.
The IQ1 is no slouch and the stylus can be replaced with the better 2 or excellent 3.
 
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JamieMcC

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I've had some feedback from expert stylus a inspection clean and rip tip of my boron canterlever with their Ultra low mass Paratrace profile diamond works out at £22 more than the new aluminium canterlever option with the same diamond profile tip they are able to offer.

I think at this moment in time that's a decent option to go with and will get me up and running again for under £200.
 

Beobloke

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IMHO and IME, either get a better moving magnet cartridge or get a low-output MC and a step-up transformer/head amp/different phono stage.

HOMC carts are a compromise, because the coil windings make them closer to a moving magnet really, and without the ability to replace the stylus. Sort of 'worst of both worlds'.
I agree. The other problem I find is that, although they are purported to "work" into the standard MM loading of 47kOhms, I find that they still sound far better into an MC-like load of tens or hundreds of Ohms.

As a result, unless you've got a phono stage that can give MM levels of gain but with MC levels of loading, you won't ever hear them at their best.

I'd stick with an MM personally, or go the whole hog and try a Low Output MC.
 
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JamieMcC

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Whoop whoop Christmas has come early my rebuilt Jico stylus from The Expert Stylus Company arrived home today and it was put straight back to use.

On their inspection as well the diamond being worn the boron canterlever was damaged also.

First up Jimmy Heath "Love Letter" followed by Air "Moon Safari"

All sounding super once again

Thanks all for the advice and support 👍

IMG_20221123_134220.jpg
 

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