How do I repair my Tube Amp?

hydrovac

Wammer
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Jun 21, 2013
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Hyderabad, India
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Krishna
Need help in fixing my Tube amp.

Hello everyone,

I really need help. A month ago my cayin MT12A tube amps power transformer failed and stopped functioning.

I tried contacting the manufacturer for support but there is no response. Does anyone have knowledge about these amps. Schematics or at least the transformers secondary voltages so that I can get it wounded.

Any assistance in this regard would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Krishna

 

uncl_nigel

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How did that song go? "I'm Jake the Peg..."

Sounds like not answering appeals for help is more common than we would like when it comes to valve amps - neither I nor the supplier could raise SAC about my KT88 power amp that caught fire when a KT88 failed...

 

John (big)

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Join Date Jun 2013Posts 13

Location Hyderabad, India

Real Name Krishna

In the Hi-Fi industry? No
And I thought my drive to Malvern to see "Mark the Ming" from NW London was a day out...

His location is shown, you really don't do heat well do you Mark.

John

 
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hearingisbelieving

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How do you repair a valve amp?

Very bloody carefully!!! In fact, as I have learned through my own experience(and cost) it is better to leave these things to qualified and experienced professionals.

Valve amps are particularly bad due to the extreme high voltage inside - even when they are switched off they will still contain voltage more than high enough to kill you very dead.

As its a transformer that has failed you definitely want to make sure you get it replaced properly otherwise you risk destroying the rest of the amp and possibly killing yourself and or burning your house down.

 

Valvebloke

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How far you can get on your own depends how much basic electronics you know. Here's what I would do:

1. Disconnect the amp from the mains and pull all the valves out.

2. Follow the wires from the power transformer to find out what each one does (identify which are the heater wires, which are the HT ones, which are the mains ones, whether any of the windings has a centre-tap etc).

3. Using a multimeter check that windings which are supposed to be isolated from one another really are isolated (you may need to desolder some of the wires to make sure that other parts of the circuit don't affect the measurements).

4. Measure the DC resistances of the different windings (again you may need to desolder some to make sure that other parts of the circuit don't affect the measurements). This will tell you if any of them is open circuit or has an anomalously low or high resistance.

5. Apply a low 50Hz AC voltage to the winding which has the highest DC resistance but is still continuous (normally this would be the HT winding) and measure the current that it draws. This should be low. If it's not then there is probably a shorted turn somewhere in the transformer and learning any more simply by measuring is going to be more-or-less impossible.

6. Assuming no shorted turns measure the voltages on the other windings when the low AC voltage is applied to the high resistance one. This will tell you the (open circuit) voltage ratios. You can convert these to absolute voltages since you know that the heater winding should be 6.3V (actually a little more since it will be designed to deliver 6.3V when on load) and/or that the mains winding should be whatever the amp's mains voltage is specified at (this would be 230V in the UK but might be different where you are).

This may give you enough info to work out all the voltages that you need. But if the whole HT winding is open circuit then it won't I'm afraid. If it doesn't then the only alternative is to disassemble the transformer (may be difficult if it's been potted into its can, but I've known people burn them out with a blowtorch !) and count the turns as you unwind the individual windings. You could use a micrometer to measure the wire thicknesses too.

If you were in the UK I could recommend some transformer suppliers who would do any or all of this for you. I imagine that whoever you plan to use for a rewind would also be able to do it.

VB

 

hydrovac

Wammer
Wammer
Jun 21, 2013
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Hyderabad, India
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Krishna
OK,

I disconnected and opened up the transformer, and checked the resistances of prim and sec windings. Primary is showing shorted. (photo)

1 sec shows 36ohms

2 sec 2 ohms

3 sec nothing (open)

What other tests should I conduct, to know the condition of the Xformer.

Thanks



IMG_4589 by hydrovac, on Flickr



IMG_4590 by hydrovac, on Flickr



IMG_4591 by hydrovac, on Flickr



IMG_4599 by hydrovac, on Flickr



IMG_4600 by hydrovac, on Flickr

 

Valvebloke

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Good, this is progress. I looked on the internet for a picture of the MT12A components but I couldn't find one. There is a poor quality picture of the MT12 here http://www.hitaudio.com/Products/MT-12.htm. It seems to use the same power transformer. Can you confirm the wiring connections to the transformer are the same in your amp as in this picture ? If they are then here is a sketch of what I think the transformer connections are (but please remember I am just guessing - you must follow the wiring in the amp to confirm this)

CayinMT12powertransformer_zps2768c633.jpg


Looking at your measurements

PRIMARY: In your final photo you say you are measuring the primary. How do you know this ? Did you follow the wires from these terminals back to the mains supply ? If you did then the wiring to the transformer in your amp is different from the wiring in the MT12 internet picture. But actually I think you are measuring the heater winding in your photo. You are using the 'continuity/diode test' range on your meter. This will confirm continuity but it will not tell you the resistance. A resistance measurement would be more useful. The result should be very low - probably less than 1 ohm. To get an accurate result you must subtract the resistance of your test leads. Connect the lead tips directly to one another and measure their resistance. Then measure the winding resistance and subtract the leads' resistance to get the true winding resistance.

SEC1, 2, 3: Can you take some photos of the connections you made to the transformer when you took these measurements ? Otherwise I cannot really be sure which windings you are measuring here.

If my sketch of the transformer connections is correct then the primary windings are at the bottom of the picture. You should reconnect the red jumper wire between the two 115V halves of the primary then measure the resistance between its ends i.e. from the Brown wire terminal to the Blue wire terminal.

Then you should identify which terminals on the right hand side are connected to the bridge rectifier. I think this is the HT supply rectifier. Is this correct ? If it is then can you measure the resistance between the transformer terminals to which these two red wires were connected. It's possible that the HT winding was in more than one section, like the mains primary. If it was then you need to reconnect any jumper wires which linked these sections together before you measure the resistance.

You should also make sure that there is no connection i.e. open circuit between the mains primary winding and any other terminal on the transformer and also between the HT winding and any other terminal. If there is then the insulation inside the transformer has probably failed.

I cannot see any other connections to the transformer, but there may be some. The front panel display, for example, must be powered from somewhere. Can you tell me if there are any other connections ?

VB

 

hydrovac

Wammer
Wammer
Jun 21, 2013
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Hyderabad, India
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Krishna
Hi Valvebloke, Sorry for not posting the photos taken prior to disconnecting the transformer. Your sketch and the connections in the picture seems to match with my transformer. The extra terminals may be for front panel. I will follow your pointers to check the windings of the X former and update. We seem to be making a + progress! Regards krishna IMG_4615 by hydrovac, on Flickr IMG_4613 by hydrovac, on Flickr IMG_4612 by hydrovac, on Flickr IMG_4610 by hydrovac, on Flickr IMG_4608 by hydrovac, on Flickr IMG_4607 by hydrovac, on Flickr IMG_4606 by hydrovac, on Flickr IMG_4604 by hydrovac, on Flickr

 

Valvebloke

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The transformer shown in post #16 is type 02865?. The connections seem to be similar to the ones in my sketch. But they are not identical. However the wire colours in the post #16 transformer seem to be similar to the ones in my sketch except for the HT AC supply which is two grey wires in the post #16 transformer but two red wires in my sketch. The post #16 transformer also has three wires (Grey/Brown, Grey/Red, Grey/Brown) which power a +/-12V DC supply, presumably for the front panel and any other solid-state circuitry.

The transformer you showed in post #14 is type 02?066. I do not know whether its connections will be like the post #16 transformer or like my sketch. So if you publish any more resistance measurements it would be useful to take pictures showing the meter reading and the terminals that you are measuring between.

Which transformer do you think has failed - the post #14 one or the post #16 one ? Where did the other transformer come from ?

VB

 

hydrovac

Wammer
Wammer
Jun 21, 2013
37
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Hyderabad, India
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Krishna
Hi Valvebloke,

Actually I have two amps in same condition. To tell you the long story, my kiddo poured water on the amps while I was away on tour. My wife just cleaned them and didn't even inform me about the incident out of ignorance.

I came back started using them, and after a while the amps were behaving abnormally and stopped functioning.

You know the rest from there.

Both the amps have identical wiring.



1 by hydrovac, on Flickr

 

Humpty was pushed

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I wondered what all the rust was!

Some family training in water / electricity non-mixing should be your first priority!

Good luck getting these sorted, top marks VB for doing a great job of long-distance repairs.

 

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