Ideal dimensions for a listening room

sjs

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Interesting, I didn't know there were any acoustics specialists here.
Have modelled any music venues and/or monitoring rooms?
I think there are a few acoustics people here, but it always surprises me how few of my colleagues in acoustics are into hifi

Over the years I have worked on bars, nightclubs, council Chambers, lecture theatres, and hifi audio rooms, amongst other things.
I have a couple of friends who specialise in mastering and recording studios.
 
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DUVET

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Hoping to, but I have a huge work backlog after missing last week due to Covid, likely to be a last minute decision. Would be nice, just a short train journey away.

Hope to see you there. Its a unique show
 
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tuga

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I think there are a few acoustics people here, but it always surprises me how few of my colleagues in acoustics are into hifi

Over the years I have worked on bars, nightclubs, council Chambers, lecture theatres, and hifi audio rooms, amongst other things.
I have a couple of friends who specialise in mastering and recording studios.

Nice.

Before spending money on a dedicated room I think it is wise to hire the services of a professional. Forum opinions, unless made by experts, are a waste of money and a recipe for unfulfilled expectations.
I don’t know if it’s worth the effort profit-wise but maybe one of your friends could advertise to the audio community?
Better-off audiophiles are known to spend 4-figure sums on cables and even extension leads…
 

DomT

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Should the wam ban answers from wammers to certain posts because we are not all certified experts on turntables DACs amplifiers and loudspeakers?

Three different architects will give different answers as would three different lawyers or doctors. There is no one right answer to rooms acoustics. It depends on what the owner wants to achieve their budget etc etc. The needs of a recording studio are completely different to a music room.

And people want different things from their music rooms as not everyone has the same preferences so as always it depends. We are building a new home and the acoustic treatment in the studio will be vastly different than in the lounge.
 
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alfie2902

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Some years ago, when first getting on to the housing market I bought an old Victorian terrace that was very run down, to fix up & profit from.
After removing an internal wall it left a room with a 10ft ceiling that was very close to 26 x 16ft.
The best room I’ve set up in by a mile.
It had a wooden suspended floor too, above a cellar space which seemed to help control the lower frequencies
I think the smallest dimensions I.e the ceiling height being bigger helped.
 
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andreweast

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Have you decided whether firing across or down the room?

With all the talk of golden ratios etc I'm not sure I've seen a discussion of how you'd like the room to be arranged regarding speaker placement, seating etc. Kharmas are big dynamic speakers so I'm presuming it's not going to be a near-field arrangement.

It's best to have space behind the listening position, but if you are firing across a 14' room there isn't going to be a huge amount of room for that. Could you extend it to 15'? My room is 14'8 and that works ok: I've currently got a mid-field arrangement with plenty of space behind me.

Although my listening room is small (14'8 x 12'3, IIRC), our main living room has the same 14'8 dimension but about 22-25 feet long. I have a second system firing across but we hardly ever use it. However I once experimented with speakers firing down that room and it sounded fantastic. Superb dynamics and projection. I can imagine the Kharmas loving such an arrangement.
 
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rockmeister

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12w X 9.6d X 8h is the smallest optimal dimension.
But if @DUVET is to insulate the ceiling that may actually drop it down in level.

And in what way is the golden-ration applied to audio is no more than a theory, and one which someone who actually knows about the subject says is not fit for purpose?

Perhaps the topic is named wrong, it should be called Not Ideal Dimensions For Listening Rooms...
In general, I suspect you occupy one extreme end of audio opinions where only measurement and charts have any relevance to your decision making. At the other end there may be someone who chooses in a totally emontional way, and in between, and especially on a HiFi forum you will find 50,000 like myself who have spent a lifetime in HiFi, have read 1000 articles, made 1000 experiments and have therefore, formed opinions that are of some value. We come here to share those opinions when asked, hoping they'll be some use.
If this offends you then ? Maybe a forum is the wrong place for you.
 

tuga

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In general, I suspect you occupy one extreme end of audio opinions where only measurement and charts have any relevance to your decision making. At the other end there may be someone who chooses in a totally emontional way, and in between, and especially on a HiFi forum you will find 50,000 like myself who have spent a lifetime in HiFi, have read 1000 articles, made 1000 experiments and have therefore, formed opinions that are of some value. We come here to share those opinions when asked, hoping they'll be some use.
If this offends you then ? Maybe a forum is the wrong place for you.

You don’t design or fix a room with emotion. You need an objective approach.
Choosing equipment is another matter, personal preference is the determining factor.
 

Camverton

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In general, I suspect you occupy one extreme end of audio opinions where only measurement and charts have any relevance to your decision making. At the other end there may be someone who chooses in a totally emontional way, and in between, and especially on a HiFi forum you will find 50,000 like myself who have spent a lifetime in HiFi, have read 1000 articles, made 1000 experiments and have therefore, formed opinions that are of some value. We come here to share those opinions when asked, hoping they'll be some use.
If this offends you then ? Maybe a forum is the wrong place for you.
It reminds me of the time when I chose contractors. I looked for the best combination of knowledge, experience and expertise. In this case both knowledge and experience are most useful. All the book learning in the world is only part of the equation, experience in putting that knowledge into practice is also necessary.

When it comes to forum advice I suppose we have to accept that few major in all three attributes and so we get some ideas here, some there, and of course there will always be learned souls on the internet to promote and counter every argument! In fairness to Ric I think he is an architect so his input is worth considering.
 

DomT

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You don’t design or fix a room with emotion. You need an objective approach.
Choosing equipment is another matter, personal preference is the determining factor.
Yes Tuga is an architect. Maybe it’s different at his practice. But the architects that I have worked with in the past and the Portuguese ones I am working with now would agree that in architecture personal preference of the client is vital. But of course there are technical considerations to achieve the personal preference just as with buying HiFi.

A good example of this is that my recording studio will not look like a typical studio because primarily it’s for writing and so I want a creative space with points of inspiration. That means that I don’t want acoustic treatment all around the walls I want photos and art. Emotion has its part to play in designing many things of a technical nature. If I just listened to an ‘objective’ architect who knew that he or she had to build an ‘objective’ studio I would end up with a studio that wouldn’t work for me at all.

Anyway I am sure that Danny has the skills to pick up the information that he needs to work with his architect effectively.
 
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tuga

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In general, I suspect you occupy one extreme end of audio opinions where only measurement and charts have any relevance to your decision making. At the other end there may be someone who chooses in a totally emontional way, and in between, and especially on a HiFi forum you will find 50,000 like myself who have spent a lifetime in HiFi, have read 1000 articles, made 1000 experiments and have therefore, formed opinions that are of some value. We come here to share those opinions when asked, hoping they'll be some use.
If this offends you then ? Maybe a forum is the wrong place for you.

Actually when treating the room there is scope for preference when it comes to deciding what to do with early reflections.
Doing nothing, absorbing, deflecting or diffusing will produce different results and different people will prefer different outcomes.
 
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tuga

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Yes Tuga is an architect. Maybe it’s different at his practice. But the architects that I have worked with in the past and the Portuguese ones I am working with now would agree that in architecture personal preference of the client is vital. But of course there are technical considerations to achieve the personal preference just as with buying HiFi.

A good example of this is that my recording studio will not look like a typical studio because primarily it’s for writing and so I want a creative space with points of inspiration. That means that I don’t want acoustic treatment all around the walls I want photos and art. Emotion has its part to play in designing many things if a technical nature. If I just listened to an ‘objective’ architect who knew that he or she had to build an ‘objective’ studio I would end up with a studio that wouldn’t work for me at all.

Anyway I am sure that Danny has the skills to pick up the information that he needs to work with his architect effectively.

Preference for style, objectiveness for engineering/structure.

If the goal is to reduce the negative impact of the room in the bass then the only way to achieve that is through objective means
 

DomT

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Preference for style, objectiveness for engineering/structure.

If the goal is to reduce the negative impact of the room in the bass then the only way to achieve that is through objective means
Agreed. But the style dictates the solution. So solutions differ.

But there is more than one engineering answer to these questions and architects, just like other professions, have their biases and preferences based on their experiences of the work that they do. I spoke to three architects here in Portugal when selecting my preferred one and they had quite differing ideas based on the same objective. As always it just depends; just like with HiFi.
 

deggie

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My lounge and music room is about ..25 x 14 x 8 ....my speakers are about the same size as yours danny.
sounds great firing lengthways down the room , more room for fine tuning ,
tried across the room but just not working out .........so hope it all works out for you.
 
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ssfas

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We have now purchased our property . To say it needs some renovation is an understatement . The original plan was to have a music room / pod outside but the boss has decided that's not a good idea . So we are adding a double story extension to the side. Above will be the master suite and below will become my listening room .
Due to what we can get away with the room will be 14 ft wide . The length is negotiable as at the front we want a utility room . What would be the optimum length of that room . My speakers have always worked best firing across the room and that would be my preferred choice .

Ta

I lso had to do quite a bit of work. The room is also 14' wide, 18' long but opens up at the back. I did various sensible things like a big rug, a lowered ceiling to break up reflections, Acoustiwall for damping, Soundbloc board, books and records on the side walls. Made sure the ceiling was integral so sound did not get upstairs. It all worked very well, but there was no knowing until the very end.

I used t have the stereo in a larger space firing across, this works well firing down the room, speakers 56cm from rear wall about 2.5m apart and I sit 3m from the midline, so fairly close in.
 

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DUVET

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I lso had to do quite a bit of work. The room is also 14' wide, 18' long but opens up at the back. I did various sensible things like a big rug, a lowered ceiling to break up reflections, Acoustiwall for damping, Soundbloc board, books and records on the side walls. Made sure the ceiling was integral so sound did not get upstairs. It all worked very well, but there was no knowing until the very end.

I used t have the stereo in a larger space firing across, this works well firing down the room, speakers 56cm from rear wall about 2.5m apart and I sit 3m from the midline, so fairly close in.

Well that’s proper stripped out
 

ssfas

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Well that’s proper stripped out
It was the only floor (oak) on the ground floor that was retained, and we left the walls in place, so it was the least altered room. The rest of the ground floor (100 sq m) was dug up to the earth and a new insulated concrete floor put it. In retrospect doing this floor as well may have been an idea, but the oak is nice.
 

tuga

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Should the wam ban answers from wammers to certain posts because we are not all certified experts on turntables DACs amplifiers and loudspeakers?

Three different architects will give different answers as would three different lawyers or doctors. There is no one right answer to rooms acoustics. It depends on what the owner wants to achieve their budget etc etc. The needs of a recording studio are completely different to a music room.

And people want different things from their music rooms as not everyone has the same preferences so as always it depends. We are building a new home and the acoustic treatment in the studio will be vastly different than in the lounge.

I would not put doctors in the same bag as architects or lawyers, medicine is an evidence-based practice.

The room affects the spectrum differently and although I have mentioned this earlier in two different messages but it makes sense to compile the two posts (and maybe @sjs could increment on this or correct me where I am mistaken).

qNKkAnn.png


To address low frequency issues you need two things which many audiophiles dislike/disdain/dread: measurements and formulas.

Above those frequencies the speaker (directivity characteristics) will have as much impact on the end result as the room. Here it depends on the listener's preference because early side reflections are perceived as an increase in "envelopment" and a "widening" of the phantom images but these effects are accompanied by a loss in image "sharpness" and also "clarity". On top of that, the smoothness/roughness of the off-axis response of speaker will impact the tonal balance at the listening spot.
Late reflections on the other hand are perceived as "spaciousness" but don't have any downsides, which explains the popularity of dipole speakers with some audiophiles. The Reflection-Free Zone monitoring room design I mentioned earlier in the thread deflects the early reflections towards the rear of the room which are then diffused.

mfsPggf.jpg

r11vZEU.png
 

DomT

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Danny not sure if anyone has mentioned this but it’s worth making a note of your current room so that when making the new one you have a reference point. Start with thinking about the sound you get now and what you want to improve. Take measurements, physical ones, and orientation of the room, room construction and furnishings. Then, if you can, some room measurements using REW or whatever. This will be helpful when discussing your new room design.
 
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