Kondo vs AN UK DAC - oversampling?

A.S.

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Time for the Kondo Mafia to chime in please.

Can someone please clarify the following question. I am not an electronics engineer or a manufacturer of hi-fi equipment. I’m finding this rather puzzling. My understanding was that Kondo of Japan made non-oversampling DACs only Just like audio like Audio Note UK but the following articles are confusing and say opposing things:

SAMPLING CONVERSION MENTIONED HERE TO 24/96:

http://www.sibatech.co.jp/kondo/dac.html
 

NON-OVERSAMPLING WITHOUT DIGITAL FILTER MENTIONED AT THE END IN GERMAN (Google translate applied)

https://www.blackforestaudio.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=45

Secondly, has anyone compared the two  sonically please?

 
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tuga

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Time for the Kondo Mafia to chime in please.

Can someone please clarify the following question. I am not an electronics engineer or a manufacturer of hi-fi equipment. I’m finding this rather puzzling. My understanding was that Kondo or Japan made non-oversampling DACs only Just like audio like Audio Note UK but the following articles are confusing and say opposing things:

OVERSAMPLING MENTIONED HERE TO 24/96:

http://www.sibatech.co.jp/kondo/dac.html
 

NON-OVERSAMPLING WITHOUT DIGITAL FILTER MENTIONED AT THE END IN GERMAN (Google translate applied)

https://www.blackforestaudio.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=45

Secondly, has anyone compared the two  sonically please?
Kondo's site isn't opening but a Google search came up with this:

Discontinued Products List - Kondo Audio Note

https://www.audionote.co.jp › products › discontinued

Digital · M100-DAC · M7 IIK DAC · KSL-M7 DAC · KSL-DAC

.

The blackforestaudio website text is probably referring to an older KSL-DAC...

.

This site also indicates that oversampling is used: https://www.soundsofsilence.com/audio-note-japan-kondo/

Perhaps they realised that NOS was flawed and they could add all the necessary "moussaka" with their tubes and transformers, although they seem to be reluctant to use a digital filter (which would be a lot more effective, particularly with Redbook material).

 

A.S.

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Is upsampling or oversampling happening in the ‘frequency conversion’ they speak of and are these the same thing?

 
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DomT

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Is upsampling or oversampling happening in the ‘frequency conversion’ they speak of and are these the same thing?
Does it really matter that you don’t understand so long as you like the sound of it? If the answer is one or the other how does that affect any decision you are going to make?

 
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A.S.

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Does it really matter that you don’t understand so long as you like the sound of it? If the answer is one or the other how does that affect any decision you are going to make?
Yes it does matter. I’ve heard many oversampling DACs and want to try a great example of a NOS DAC now. Getting a home demo/audition of such is impossible so I’ll buy second hand and try. That’s why I need to know what’s what. If you’ve driven diesel cars all your life and want to drive something different, you need to know what’s under the hood. 

 

tuga

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Yes it does matter. I’ve heard many oversampling DACs and want to try a great example of a NOS DAC now. Getting a home demo/audition of such is impossible so I’ll buy second hand and try. That’s why I need to know what’s what. If you’ve driven diesel cars all your life and want to drive something different, you need to know what’s under the hood. 
Your speakers have digital inputs; why bother adding a DAC if its output will have go into the Beolabs' ADC and then DAC which uses OS?

 
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A.S.

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Your speakers have digital inputs; why bother adding a DAC if its output will have go into the Beolabs' ADC and then DAC which uses OS?
They can differentiate sources very well indeed. They won’t reverse the sonics of the source. Why wouldn’t one try NOS sonics and if liked continue with it?

 

tuga

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They can differentiate sources very well indeed. They won’t reverse the sonics of the source. Why wouldn’t one try NOS sonics and if liked continue with it?
I understand that, and if you like NOS you like it, but there will be degradation (and I'm not talking about NOS at this point but of an unnecessary D/A + A/D step).

 

A.S.

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I understand that, and if you like NOS you like it, but there will be degradation (and I'm not talking about NOS at this point but of an unnecessary D/A + A/D step).
I’ve asked the engineer at B&o and they’ve done the tests and they can’t hear the inclusion of the ADC sonically. I’ve done it myself. I can’t hear a difference with analogue in or digital in. The mastering of the album and the source into them are very discernible to me. 

 

DomT

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I’ve asked the engineer at B&o and they’ve done the tests and they can’t hear the inclusion of the ADC sonically. I’ve done it myself. I can’t hear a difference with analogue in or digital in. The mastering of the album and the source into them are very discernible to me. 
The B&O gear you have must be truly outstanding to be so transparent. When I was interested in a Naim Uniti Nova I did a home demo. The analogue input has to go through an ADC and it was appalling by comparison to the digital inputs. Naim also say that the Nova ADC is transparent. Best of luck. 

 

Psilonaught

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To be fair I don't hear any "digital artifacts" when using my Monacor dsm-26lan Vs an analogue crossover so I can believe that.

 

DomT

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To be fair I don't hear any "digital artifacts" when using my Monacor dsm-26lan Vs an analogue crossover so I can believe that.
I didn’t hear digital artefacts. On the Naim Nova analogue input using a Luxman PD171 and Trilogy 907 phonostage I heard a muffled, undynamic, lifeless presentation compared directly with the Naim’s digital input. At the dealer even when using a modest Naim amp with true analogue inputs the sound was as expected compared to the terrible ADC input on the Nova.

 
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rabski

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The B&O gear you have must be truly outstanding to be so transparent.
I would assume the Beolab 90s are in the 'outstanding' category Dom. There are one or two reviewers who certainly rate them as such.

As to the point here, the 'history' is that after their divorce, Audio Note UK and Audio Note Japan have gone in somewhat different design directions. Ironically, ANUK seem to be following more the path originally set by Kondo San, in sticking mostly to NOS DAC architecture with filtering in the analogue domain. Similarly with their valve designs, though that's a different matter.

NOS does NOT have to introduce unnecessary distortion or aretefacts, though the source is important. In terms of pure measurement, NOS tends to perform worse than oversampling when dealing with redbook. Listening is, of course, another matter entirely. The issue of filtering has been mentioned in countless threads, and any engineer will be well aware that there is more than one way to accomplish a low-pass filter, each of which has benefits and deficits. Valves and transformers similarly have the ability to be extremely linear, fast and more than high enough bandwidth. Valves have applications, let's not forget, in extremely high frequency pulse-modulation environments, radar, etc. However, it's very easy to design valve equipment to add 'pleasing' distortion and some designers choose to do so. Others choose to use valves for their positive aspects.

Here, as with most things in this hobby (or obession; take your pick), the aim is to reproduce music and to listen to it. I point that out, because in among all the graphs, measurements and figures, it sometimes seems to be forgotten or pushed aside. With DACs in particular, it seems listening is often the crucial assessment. I don't think my ears are faulty. I have a room full of musical instruments and attend (when possible) live events, from small acoustic to rock and orchestral. DACs here have ranged from the ultra-cost maximum digital, to the ultra-cheap and via all forms of achitecture. My own current DAC is built around non-oversampling architecture using what to my ears remains the best chip and emplying transformers in the filter network and a valve output stage. I am rather happy with the noise it makes.

Difficult though it is, I feel that some comparative listening is vital here.

 

DomT

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I would assume the Beolab 90s are in the 'outstanding' category Dom. There are one or two reviewers who certainly rate them as such.
Thanks for the nudge.  I hadn't realised that @A.S. had *those* Beolab 90s.  One would hope that they were transparent.  I blame my lack of concentration on the failed delivery of our coffee and we are now three days without caffeine and both have a bad headache!

 

A.S.

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Has anyone heard both ANUK and Kondo DACs by any chance. The forum had a lot of ‘Kondo Mafia’ traffic in years past. Be keen to hear from those gangsters…

 

DomT

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Has anyone heard both ANUK and Kondo DACs by any chance. The forum had a lot of ‘Kondo Mafia’ traffic in years past. Be keen to hear from those gangsters…
Dealers are happy to do home demos and this would seem to be the obvious way forward Given that no Kondo or Audio Note dealer (or probably other Kondon/Audio Note wammers) will have your speakers. 

 

A.S.

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Dealers are happy to do home demos and this would seem to be the obvious way forward Given that no Kondo or Audio Note dealer (or probably other Kondon/Audio Note wammers) will have your speakers. 
Unfortunately that’s not the case. These are made to order. My best chance is buy used/exdemo/new.  Might try another forum where more likely to get chaps who’ve heard both or had both. Thank you DomT. 

 

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