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Linn Ekstatik - Tracking- and Resonance-Test

Rille

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I have had the Ekstatik for a good 3 weeks now and it should also be played in by now. Time for me to carry out a tracking test and a resonance test. At 70 µm, the tracking is probably good enough. What worries me a lot, however, is the resonance test. In the EkosSE/1 with the correct tracking force and anti-skating force, the resonances already start at 14 Hz and are so violent at 12 Hz that you can get scared and bang. The system is shaken to such an extent that I have never seen anything like it. However, the needle does not jump out of the groove. The resonance at 10 Hz and below is remarkably quiet.

In contrast to EMT pickups, a Linn Ekstatik is suspended more softly, 15 µm/mN instead of 12µm/mN. Now the question arises for me, is the system possibly still too suspended for an EkosSE? Based on the characteristics I have observed, I would almost assume so.

By increasing the mass on the tone arm by about 4 g, this problem becomes much less dramatic. The resonance is still at 12 Hz (14 Hz), but now it mainly occurs vertically. Resonance between 12 und 8 Hz is fine.

Have you made similar observations? How do you deal with it?
 
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pirov

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How were the resonance and tracking tests carried out, i.e. with what equipment? How does the cartridge sound – any sign of mis-tracking or distortion?
 

Rille

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I use a corresponding test record of the image hifi "Vinyl Essentials". I could not observe distortions during normal listening so far.

The very high level of resonance is really worrying. Regardless of the result, I do not want to ignore it, moreover, I believe that through optimization, the potential of the Ekstatik can be further exploited.
 

pirov

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This from Ortofon's website which may make sense to someone!

The below scheme illustrates the relationship between cartridge compliance, tonearm mass and the resulting resonance frequency.

resonance-frequency.png

Resonance frequency can be calculated by using the formula
f = 1000 : (2 x π x √ (M x C))
where:
f - Cartridge resonance frequency in Hz
π - 3.14159265359...
C - Cartridge compliance lateral in µm/mN
M - Total tonearm system mass which is a sum of Mass of cartridge, Mass of headshell and screws and Effective mass of tone arm (all values in gram).

• Resonance frequency within 7-12Hz is optimal for the system.
• Resonance frequency slightly outside the optimal interval 6,5-7Hz and 12-14Hz can be considered as an option that might be used without problems.
• Resonance frequency outside the interval 6,5-7Hz and 12-14Hz is questionable, and the system might not work properly.

https://www.ortofon.com/support/support-hifi/resonance-frequency/
 
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sktn77a

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I think what you are seeing is normal. Motions of the arm/cartridge will be maximum at the arm/cartridge resonant frequency (~12 Hz for the Ekstatik/Ekos) and will get smaller on either side of this frequency. The movement with most cartridges will be so large that the stylus will jump out of the groove at 70u! I doubt very much that the Ekstatik/Ekos combination is not an optimal match.

The odd thing is that the resonant frequency stays the same when you increased the mass of the system by 4g(?)
 

llatpoh

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If there's a resonance in the 12hz to 14hz range it means there could be issues with heavily warped records. Some people may be affected, others won't ever care. What could be worrisome, particularly to those who spent the likes of $13K USD on the combo after being told Ekos SE/Ekstatic was a match made in heaven, is that the pairing may not be optimal after all, assuming those test results are correct.
 
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sktn77a

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OK, this is where things start getting really messy! First of all, I haven't seen a compliance spec on a high end Linn cartridge since the old Supex series. So I have no idea what the Ekstatik compliance is. I suspect it is similar to the older (Lyra) Kandid. Secondly, compliance specs are all over the place - Japanese cartridges tend to be spec'd a 100 Hz dynamic, while US and European cartridges tend to be spec's at 10 Hz. Dynamic compliance at 10Hz is what the aforementioned equation uses (on average, the value of the dynamic compliance at 100 Hz must be doubled to find its correspondence at 10 Hz).

Assuming the OP's figures are correct and being used correctly, an arm/cartridge resonance of 12Hz is at the upper limit of general acceptability - it's OK but any higher and the resonance is getting close to the audible band, any lower than 8Hz and the resonance begins to exacerbate footfalls, rumble, record warps, etc.

At the end of the day, all I know is that i take one heck of a cartridge to track the 70u band on the Ortofon/Shure test records!
 
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Mr Kandid

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Exstatik cart is made by EMT
I’m sticking with my Lyra made Kandid.(y)
 
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Rille

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At this point, it is not my intention to criticise. My motivation is to seek exchange. I hope to be understood in this sense.
What emerges for me is that the combination between Ekstatike and EkosSE/1 is good, but it is not perfect. It is a combination that is rather on the edge of an optimum.
The constructive effort to design a sub-chassis turntable and to develop it further is not insignificant. The subchassis has a natural frequency of 5 Hz. The tone arm must not be too heavy. The choice of materials requires quite a lot of effort. The tuning of the individual components is very complex.
I find it striking that the Ekstatik shows NO resonance in the range between 6 and 10 Hz. The Kandid resonated precisely here in the range of 8 and 10 Hz, but much more benignly than the Ekstatik.
I do not have any information about the compliance of the Kandid. The Ekstatik, as I have already stated above, has a value of 15 µm/mN. At what frequency this value was determined is beyond my knowledge.
The tracking of 70 µm is a good value to expect. The Kandid had much greater problems here. With a certain amount of goodwill, a maximum of 60 µm was possible, and it was always the right channel that had massive distortion.

I find it astonishing that by increasing the mass of the tonearm in the headshell area, the sound image does not disintegrate. But perhaps the things I noticed are not of greater interest.
 

sktn77a

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Do you have a link for the Ekstatik compliance specs (I couldn't find it anywhere)? Hopefully, being a European manufacturer, it was measured at the preferred 10Hz.

FYI, my Lyra Argo i won't track the 70u band. Lyras appear to be OK, but not great, trackers.
 

Rille

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Do you have a link for the Ekstatik compliance specs (I couldn't find it anywhere)? Hopefully, being a European manufacturer, it was measured at the preferred 10Hz.

FYI, my Lyra Argo i won't track the 70u band. Lyras appear to be OK, but not great, trackers.
I took the information from the package insert for the Ekstatik. However, there is no indication of the frequency for which the compliance is specified.

I will probably have no choice but to grab the test record when the opportunity arises and go to my dealer to listen to it.
 
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mskaye

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Do you have a link for the Ekstatik compliance specs (I couldn't find it anywhere)? Hopefully, being a European manufacturer, it was measured at the preferred 10Hz.

FYI, my Lyra Argo i won't track the 70u band. Lyras appear to be OK, but not great, trackers.
some Lyra Kleos tracking measurements at the end of this rave review that you may find interesting
https://www.hifinews.com/content/lyra-kleos-sl-cartridge
 

sktn77a

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some Lyra Kleos tracking measurements at the end of this rave review that you may find interesting
Very interesting! My Argo i is the predecessor and quite similar to the regular Kleos (other than the "new angle" alignment). But clearly, this sample tracked better than many others - perhaps an attribute of the "SL" series?
Note the measured compliance of the Kleos in the review was twice the stated value - consistent with the 100Hz to 10Hz correction factor from the literature.
 

NL.

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Have you made similar observations? How do you deal with it?
there's a resonance in the 12hz to 14hz range it means there could be issues with heavily warped records. Some people may be affected, others won't ever care. What could be worrisome, particularly to those who spent the likes of $13K USD on the combo after being told Ekos SE/Ekstatic was a match made in heaven, is that the pairing may not be optimal after all

That's exactly my case. Heavily warped records skip. But also heavily grooved, particularly within the parts of high dynamics in bass area, tend to skip. In the burn-in period this was much more often. I thought my tracking and/or anti-skating were not set properly. Also, thanks @ThomasOK who gave me guidelines, I set tracking and anti/skating. After a burn-in things have been better. Most probably Ekstatik suspension softened. But the problem with warps and high dynamic bass grooves remained and I somehow ignore it, as it happens fairly rare. But to be honest I'm not happy about it. I'll run resonance tests for sure soon and report back my results.
 
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pirov

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But the problem with warps and high dynamic bass grooves remained and I somehow ignore it, as it happens fairly rare. But to be honest I'm not happy about it.

I wouldn't be happy about this either. Could it be a problem with this particular Ekstatik, or with the arm/set up? I had an Ekstatik on home dem for a couple of weeks and never experienced skipping or mis-tracking, even with heavily modulated grooves.
 

Rille

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I experimented again with the mass.

The 4 g of additional mass on the headshell of the EkosSE/1 did a lot for the rhythm and timing. I would call it perfect. However, the music also seems a bit meatless and skeletal. I tried another variation by weighting the tonearm with 2 g in the headshell area. I like that quite a bit. A good balance between rhythm and colour.

I also communicated my problem to the Linn Helpline. Unfortunately, I did not receive a concrete answer as to where the Ekstatik should be in terms of its resonance in the EkosSE/1 according to Linn specifications. The worrying massiveness of the resonance behaviour was also not answered.

I can also confirm that it has become somewhat more good-natured after playing in.

The following can be read on the Linn homepage (translated from German)

"Our all-new flagship - Ekstatik sets new standards in the synergy between cartridge and tonearm. Its unique design allows it to work in harmony with the Ekos SE and diverts more unwanted resonance along the tonearm through the sub-chassis."

Based on my current experience, this does not correspond to reality.
 
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Rille

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I wouldn't be happy about this either. Could it be a problem with this particular Ekstatik, or with the arm/set up? I had an Ekstatik on home dem for a couple of weeks and never experienced skipping or mis-tracking, even with heavily modulated grooves.
In order to answer this question, I will ask my Linn dealer to perform a tracking and resonance test on his Ekstatik as well. However, he is not in my immediate vicinity.
 

Rille

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When set to the correct (specified) VTF, how does your Ekstatik sound?
Out of the box it already plays well, but after 35 to 50 h it is about played in and definitely gives pleasure.

It possesses an almost irrepressible joy of playing pop/rock especially from the 80s is a lot of fun, the arrangement of the sound engineers is reproduced wonderfully without the music falling apart. The complexity can be grasped at any time. Everything plays together without disintegrating into an unpleasant analytics. I would compare it to a fabric woven in a sophisticated pattern. It does not disintegrate into warp and weft threads, but remains a coherent fabric that unfolds a sculptural effect.

Classical music appears light-footed and elegant. Strings sound wonderfully stress-free and yet filigree and powerful, but above all clean and distortion-free. Small ensembles are reproduced intimately. As a listener, you take part in the familiar interplay.

It is impressive how a sound is created, sustained and fades away again. Without any compression effects, the sound image always remains open and audible. Individual musical voices are brought out in a wonderful way and can be heard separately, without the sensuality of the sound being lost. context of their playing is lost. On the contrary, it is precisely through this precision that the musical reproduction gains a new depth and intelligibility.

The sound seems three-dimensional and detaches itself from the loudspeakers. A bas-relief becomes a sculpture. I mean this in a figurative sense, since spatiality is not important to me, I can assign the sound to a musician. The individual musician becomes more tangible and can be experienced as part of the whole.

The system plays in a finely graduated dynamic and seems very sovereign. It never seems strained or stressful, but also never boring or soft, always lively and at the height of the action. Fine differentiations in the beat, which were not so obvious before, now result in a new understanding of the complexity of what is happening in the music.

It's all great! Or?

Not quite, in the low bass it seems restless and bloated. That disturbs the overall impression. Especially more modern recordings, which are mixed a bit richer in the bass, almost slay you.

Although the accompaniment and the main voice can be followed at any time, the hierarchy between them is missing. They always play at eye level. This is irritating because changes and dialogues between voices are not always clear.

The timbres just seem a little too garish.

One loses a little of the joy of listening to music.
 

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