Loudspeaker's, minimum distance apart?

[PhilofCas]

Hi all,

As above really, just considering positioning options in a 13 x 12' room.

Room has 2 sets of double doors, a TV corner cabinet, a 3 piece suite (with a single seat, a 2 seat and a 3 seat settee), also a wife to consider - so overall fairly cramped.

Currently my speakers are woefully placed close together on a low shelf and need to be repositioned, the Mrs has ruled a couple of places out already, but whilst sat here just now a place I hadn't thought of before has sprung to mind, this is for one of the speakers to straddle one of the doors that isn't used, i.e. a double where we only use one if you get my drift, this would afford them to be approx. 3' foot 4" apart (inside to inside), I'd listen from about 11' away.

So, is 3' 4" too close together?

Any input much appreciated :^

Thank you, Phil.

 

[paulf-2007]

if you mean 3' 4" apart then only if listening nearfield, but then you may as well use headphones. In my office my speaks are 3' 10" apart but I listen with them 3' away from my ears. I would suggest you move them about and see what sounds best and then let the boss tell you where they have to go.

 

[bandit pilot]

Still sounds close together, but try it. You've got nothing to lose. :^

 

[SergeAuckland]

Stereo works best when the listener is at the apex of an equilateral triangle with the loudspeakers at the other apexes. This sets the ideal angles, and the loudspeakers themselves set the minimum distances, which can be surprisingly small. Most small two-way loudspeakers integrate the drivers within one metre, as that's where the frequency response and sensitivity is normally measured. Consequently, if the loudspakers are only one metre apart, then listening at one metre distance would be fine. Keeping the 'speakers close but increasing the listening distance will have the effect of making the stereo closer to mono as the angle between the loudspeakers narrows. However, if that's all that's possible, then it will still provide good reeproduction of everything except stareo stage width. This can be artificially widened by using phase-shifting circuits as used to be provided in a few amplifiers years ago, but results vary, so probably not worth the extra effort.

S

 

[PhilofCas]

if you mean 3' 4" apart then only if listening nearfield, but then you may as well use headphones. In my office my speaks are 3' 10" apart but I listen with them 3' away from my ears. I would suggest you move them about and see what sounds best and then let the boss tell you where they have to go.

feet/inch symbols now corrected :doh:

I really haven't got much to go at, the 2 other options are possibly wall mount, which I'm not a massive fan of and the other option is either side of the 2 seater, with one speaker being in the window and wouldn't be able to listen centrally, so not great too. Another option which may get signed off, is for them to become the 2 front channels of a 5.1 set-up, which I must admit sounds pretty appealing as I'd get to hear them much more.

I'll leave you to speak with her indoors :nerves:

 

[bandit pilot]

feet/inch symbols now corrected :doh: I really haven't got much to go at, the 2 other options are possibly wall mount, which I'm not a massive fan of and the other option is either side of the 2 seater, with one speaker being in the window and wouldn't be able to listen centrally, so not great too. Another option which may get signed off, is for them to become the 2 front channels of a 5.1 set-up, which I must admit sounds pretty appealing as I'd get to hear them much more.

I'll leave you to speak with her indoors :nerves:

Never easy to share a limited space, especially if SWMBO doesn't share your passion for noisy boxes.

I used to have similar issues, and used a Stax ear rig for some time. The real bugger of it was that the Stax sounded vastly superior to my Hifi when it was set up to fit around a family and furniture.

 

[rockmeister]

yes, still too close. What about wall mounting higher up (but avoiding corners).

 

[PhilofCas]

Never easy to share a limited space, especially if SWMBO doesn't share your passion for noisy boxes.I used to have similar issues, and used a Stax ear rig for some time. The real bugger of it was that the Stax sounded vastly superior to my Hifi when it was set up to fit around a family and furniture.

yep, definitely compromised positioning with a typical family living room, though I do believe our current room has got good potential for a nice sound

- - - Updated - - -

yes, still too close. What about wall mounting higher up (but avoiding corners).

Hi John, and have them angled down towards the listening position?

 

[Tel]

Another option which may get signed off, is for them to become the 2 front channels of a 5.1 set-up, which I must admit sounds pretty appealing as I'd get to hear them much more.

That would seem to be a better option, especially if you get the right pre-amp or AV amp which allows you to switch to 2Ch only when listening to music.

 

[rockmeister]

hi phil. Yes. In this way you gat some imaging back by adding width and relieve the domestic crisis? It's especially good if they sound a tad bright now, since firing at the sofa/carpet is about as 'absorbing' as you can get, so with less reflection and some of the HF soaked up you should in any case get less 'mess' in the top half of the sound spectrum. Avoid the corners tho, unless you need much more (and slightly unpredictable) bass.

 

[PhilofCas]

thanks John, I'll just add that I'm thinking ahead to the new speakers I get, (still) thinking along the lines of Harbeth P3esr's, small AE standmounts and maybe something like a Neat Motive 2.

 

[Who Cares?]

Theory from Serge. Start from there, then using a wide range of music listen with eyes closed. A reasonable system should provide a soundstage that has no gaps between the speakers with some extension beyond the outer limits of each speaker and a sense of depth with, hopefully, on some recordings, height.

I emphasise a wide range of music, all recorded music not being equal.

Oh the Mrs, mine has her room with a TV, I have my room with the sounds. It's the better way.

 

[nat8808]

Stereo works best when the listener is at the apex of an equilateral triangle with the loudspeakers at the other apexes. This sets the ideal angles, and the loudspeakers themselves set the minimum distances, which can be surprisingly small. Most small two-way loudspeakers integrate the drivers within one metre, as that's where the frequency response and sensitivity is normally measured. Consequently, if the loudspakers are only one metre apart, then listening at one metre distance would be fine. Keeping the 'speakers close but increasing the listening distance will have the effect of making the stereo closer to mono as the angle between the loudspeakers narrows. However, if that's all that's possible, then it will still provide good reeproduction of everything except stareo stage width. This can be artificially widened by using phase-shifting circuits as used to be provided in a few amplifiers years ago, but results vary, so probably not worth the extra effort.S

That's old fashioned

I would recommend the Joachim Gerhard/Essex Uni et al placement as per their research paper (couldn't be bothered to find the actual paper). Essentially you end up with yourself near a back wall and the speakers in the middle of the room. The triangle is quite obtuse. Here's a .PDF explaining it:

http://www.immediasound.com/Speaker%20set-up%202009.pdf

and an interview quote speaking very generally:

Gerhard's first rule in speaker placement is to prevent the first reflections as much as possible. Instead of the usual rule of placing the speakers so that they correlate with one-thirds of the room dimensions, he suggests that the speakers are placed in the middle of the room.- Room placement is totally underestimated. What is usual today is just an aesthetic placement. It is totally stupid. For me it is no question that speakers, except dipoles or line sources, benefit of being listened to in the near field. I don't like time delay; the sound should be heard only once. The only things that comes from the side is delayed and disturbs the image. The sound gets broader, more indistinct. And I am very concerned about the three-dimensional touching feeling in speakers. That is what makes you visualize the performance, so I find imaging a really fundamental information of the music. Tonal balance can always be discussed, but this feeling of being there is very crucial.

So when placing speakers, just think about yourself. When you are going to talk in a room, do you go to the corner? To the back wall? No, you go to the middle. Try it out yourself. Make someone talk in your listening room while they walk around, and find where the sound is most pleasing. Good placement is for free. But people don't seem to realize it. They buy speaker systems for 50.000 dollars and then they say: Oh, I can't put my speakers where they sound best, because my wife does not like it!

 

[Who Cares?]

that's old fashioned i would recommend the joachim gerhard/essex uni et al placement as per their research paper (couldn't be bothered to find the actual paper). Essentially you end up with yourself near a back wall and the speakers in the middle of the room. The triangle is quite obtuse. Here's a .pdf explaining it:

http://www.immediasound.com/speaker%20set-up%202009.pdf

and an interview quote speaking very generally:

waf?

 

[SergeAuckland]

That's old fashioned I would recommend the Joachim Gerhard/Essex Uni et al placement as per their research paper (couldn't be bothered to find the actual paper). Essentially you end up with yourself near a back wall and the speakers in the middle of the room. The triangle is quite obtuse. Here's a .PDF explaining it:

http://www.immediasound.com/Speaker%20set-up%202009.pdf

and an interview quote speaking very generally:

That loudspeaker placement has some merit, although I would prefer that both listener and loudspeakers were well away from walls. However, if domestic acceptability is of any concern, then the chances of it being of use to the OP are slight.

S

 

[68rednose]

That loudspeaker placement has some merit, although I would prefer that both listener and loudspeakers were well away from walls. However, if domestic acceptability is of any concern, then the chances of it being of use to the OP are slight.S

Agree on that, sitting against the back wall is the worst position to listen to music to in our room.

In our room, the sweet spot is approx 1,5 m away from the wall.

If you must sit against the wall, try to avoid reflections by putting some pillows against the wall.

 

[nat8808]

Unfortunately you're all probably right about the practicality of the suggestion (when I've seen photos of Joachim's set up on DIYaudio.com, he doesn't appear to have a set-up like that either!).

Here's the reasoning behind sitting at the back wall:

"There are two reasons for sitting close to the rear wall. First, at the room boundaries (walls) the sound pressure is high and the velocity is low. Sitting in the maximum pressure area gives the best perception of deep bass.

Secondly, the reflections are shorter than the circumference of the head, so the brain cannot measure the time delay between the ears, and therefore cannot localize the source of sound. When the brain cannot localize reflections it ignores them"

 

[nat8808]

More realistically, to help this situation, I would go about placing them as wide apart as you can and symmetrically in the room with a listening position that you bring in to place as and when you want to listen.

It's one thing getting the speakers where you want them perminantly, but a whole new question getting the furniture moved to suit too.

So, try the placement you thought of but just don't sit that 11 foot away - get a festival type collapsable chair if you have to, one with a beer can holder in the arm. Your wife will appreciate how you're having to put yourself out to accomodate everything she wants and might feel sorry and compromise a little more!

 

[Radioham]

Does the TV have to be in the corner ? if its a modern flat TV could it not go along one wall with the speakers either side of the TV. When we changed from a CRT to a LCD TV I got rid of the corner unit and although not wall mounted its on a slim table along with other AV items.

Recently whilst on holiday, I stayed in a holiday let and the owner had mounted a couple of small speakers from an all in -one hifi quite close to the ceiling angled down and that sounded quite good.

Finally my neighbour uses KEF Eggs with a sub, to good effect.