Martin Logan speakers

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I'm curious about Martin Logan speakers - might possibly contemplate buying a pair. I've heard some sounding good many years ago and I could fit a pair in if they were not wider than around 1 foot.

Since I'd be buying second hand I'd like to learn as much as possible about how they last over the years? Any typical deterioration issues or are they good to last? Do they need servicing at any point, and if so why?

All other discussion of their sound qualities welcome.

Feel free to suggest any other electrostatics that also are not wider than 1 foot or so. No Quad radiators!
 

Lurch

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No service issues to my knowledge, panels should last 15 - 20 yrs the panels can be removed and cleaned in a bath/shower if needs be or complete panels purchased (ml keep stocks) sound is superb, dragged my Summits upto Stoke for the show and are none the worse for the trip.
Your more than welcome to come and have a listen to my MLs to gauge a more recent iteration.
 

tuga

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Buy the biggest posible because the panel will be covering a wider range (lower high-pass frequency).
No point in buying a panel that's little more than a 2-way with an electrostatic tweeter.

Best I've listened to were Quad ESL63 w/ Gradient subs, the largest Magnepans and some large Apogees a friend of my father in law owns.
 
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JANDL100

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I suspect that many of the ML hybrids are more than a foot wide, so that might be an issue for you.

John lurch's at Stoke were mighty impressive and enjoyable, but probably (guessing) about 15 inches wide?
Edit ; I'm wrong, according to John below they are under 13 inches wide.

The integration between panel and bass box has improved markedly over the years, it used to be a major problem for some listeners but much less so in more recent models. Still something to bear in mind and check out for yourself.

I've owned two ML models, the full range electrostatic CLS2z and a small hybrid. The full range were excellent in their own idiosyncratic way, but about 2 feet wide.
The small hybrids (very small), I forget the model name, were frankly rubbish imo. See tuga's post above. I think they were actually intended as rear surround speakers.
 
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DomT

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I visited several wammers and @Lurch ’s system was one of my favourites. I have a very good friend in Spain and have heard his MLs hundreds of times for extended periods. Am not that keen on his system but I think that it’s the rest of his system that is the problem.

My take on it is that the MLs are dependent on what is in the signal chain and if something isn’t right then the MLs will tell you. When I did a demo of Harbeth SHL5 vs ML (Audio Research everything else) at KJ West One my conclusion was that the ML told me more about the sound of the piece and the Harbeth told me more about how the music was being played and so for MLs you need a special front end like Lurch has. Hope that makes sense.
 

Lurch

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My Summits are 322mm (12 5/8") at the widest point.
At the show I ran them with the front of the speaker 610mm from back wall, and 570mm from the side of speaker to side wall tailing to 510mm giving a 60mm toe in. 50Hz set at - 4dB, this was in a 13'x13' room with suspended wooden floor. My home listening room is 12'x14 with suspended floor and I run them with the same sidewall measurements and 1.5m from wall with 0dB adjustments at the 25 & 50Hz points.
 
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hearhere

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I bought a new pair of Expression 13a speakers 3 years ago after convincing showroom demos and excellent reviews.

I was looking for speakers to replace my 17 year old Avantgarde Unos.

After buying a used pair of Quad 2905s that sounded remarkably good in my difficult room, I thought the move to ML with their much better and slimmer looks would be straight-forward.

The MLs arrived and after careful setting up and (with the help of the then UK distributor) we took readings to set the Anthem room correction for the bass amps.

Sadly these very expensive speakers never sounded as good, let alone better than the ageing Unos - with or without the help of Anthem!

Careful side-by-side comparison confirmed this to myself and a number of audiophile visitors. The MLs had to find a new home after a few months of encouragement to sound their best. This was achieved at significant loss to me but a bargain for their new owner.

The reason for the disappointing sound - these speakers need a rear wall to harvest the 50% of sound energy that is projected backwards. My large room requires mid-room placement with 12 ft behind one and 15 ft behind the other.

Advice - ensure your room will be sympathetic to MLs and try at home first if possible and certainly if buying new - my big and costly mistake! MLs are greedy for power so get a juicy amp that's happy with low impedences. I bought a Sanders Magtech (often chosen for electrostatics) specifically to power the MLs but to no avail.

Post-script - I kept the better-sounding Unos but soon replaced them with used 2006 Duos and more recently with new Duo XDs. Horns don’t worry if placed mid-room and sound fantastic when carefully set up. Electrostatic panels are far fussier than horns regarding placement within your room. They sound great in most rooms but sadly not mine. Peter
 
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Jules_S

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I also have a pair of ML Summits - mine are around 17 years old now. I purchased them second hand this year - the previous owner apparently had then "serviced" by Absolute Sounds but I don't think anything was really done.

ML say that the panels are tough - they would even survive being perforated and still perform satisfactorily, although I think you'd have to be going some (or sat in front of them with a pin) to get through the metal stators either side of the membrane! A quick vacuum every couple of weeks to keep them dust free is all the maintenance they really need, plus a damp cloth over the bass enclosures.

As has been mentioned already there's two basic types of ML electrostatics - full range ones such as the CLS / CLS II / CLX or the much more common hybrids that combine an ESL panel to handle frequencies from around 300Hz (model-dependent) upwards, allied to a conventional cone-driver to handle the bass. The hybrid models also come in two main categories, those that are purely passive and those that have built-in amplification for the bass section (the ESL panel itself is always passive). The former type includes models such as the Aerius, Clarity, Sequel and the current Electromotion. The latter type include the Summit , Summit X, Montis and all but the smallest model in the current Masterpiece range (the Classic) which is still a passive model. All models only have speaker-level inputs - if it's a semi-active model then the internals sort out splitting the signal between panel and bass section and deal with A-D conversion where necessary.

Older hybrid models suffered (apparently) with poor integration between the bass and panels, I never heard any so can't comment. Since the Summit / Montis were introduced that seems to have changed significantly, personally I'm not aware of any major issues in this area, the transition from the lower frequencies to the panel seem pretty seamless to me, both in tone and pace. The full range models are probably a bit of an acquired taste - brilliant at what they do within the limitations (i.e. no deep bass) but I auditioned a pair of the original CLS some years ago and couldn't have lived with them. The Statement might be a different matter, but you'll need to be living in a stately home to fit them in!

They do like a bit of space around them - given the dipole nature of the panels you need to give them a good amount of distance to the front wall, and potentially consider room treatment to manage any excessive rearward radiation. ML recommend 2ft upwards I think, the further away the better really. They can work well surprisingly close to side walls though - that's the main reason I wanted to try some because I have a narrow room so any speaker ends up positioned quite close. Obviously there's still interaction but it's reduced compared to the dispersion pattern of a conventional driver. Recommendation is to have one of either the front or rear walls with "hard" surfaces and the other one "soft", I can't remember where I read that but it seems to work for me.

Also be aware that many models are a bit of a bugger to drive properly. Although the "nominal" impedance is often quoted around 4 ohm, it varies significantly. They have reactive impedance curves and dip very low at the top end of the frequency range - sub-1 ohm in the case of our Summits so they like an amp that can really drive them and cope with that sort of environment. I know that reviewers have often said they've tried them with valve amps but really I wouldn't say that's a great match unless you have a really "grunty" one with a high damping factor, or you'll lose the top end. Lots of high quality solid state amps are where it's at! John uses Nord Class-D monos with his and I have a Class-D Audio Research integrated and both are very successful. Perhaps contrary to logic, the amp you choose to partner does have an impact on the bass of the semi-active models, even though they have their own amplification.

The current range of semi-active hybrids have a more sophisticated bass management system than our somewhat basic 25 / 50 Hz level controls. You can plug in a microphone and use the Anthem Room Correction system (basically a DSP engine) to even out bass response in-room. Some people like it, some don't but it's an option.

Small changes in positioning can make a significant difference in certain rooms. Playing around with this can make or break your relationship with MLs. Get it right and you won't want to go back to conventional speakers. They can do imaging (focus, separation, scale, clarity) like no other and really communicate the soul of the music. I'm still playing with my setup but it's fun to hear the changes as you play around.

P.S. The Martin Logan website is a good resource for finding out about older models - they have a product museum (<- link) that includes a timeline and literature about most of the older models
 

Psilonaught

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Dipole panels should be at least 1m away from any walls and especially the rear wall, in my experience. The interaction with the rear wall is part of the magic.

Squeezing any ML, ESL or Magnepan into an incorrectly sized room is a recipe for disappointed.
 
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Camverton

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I’ve had three pairs of Martin Logan stats over the years and needless to say I like them, although I have moved on to better (for me) speakers since.

Some random thoughts:

Absolute sods to set up optimally and then that is for a very narrow listening position; I found them best for one listener only at a time. Distance to walls both behind and to the side makes a huge difference to the sound quality, as does tilt and toe in. Whilst that could be seen as a disadvantage it does mean that you can tune to your taste - everything from highly focussed hifi presentation to a more atmospheric presentation more akin to listening to music in a concert hall.

They are much more rufty tufty than Quads but the coating in the panels does degrade over time with a drop in the higher frequencies. Panel life estimates vary from ten years max to twenty or more years. I guess it depends on the environment, smoke, direct sunlight, amount of use etc etc. Unlike Quads the actual diaphragm is exposed to the air. A few years ago the cost of replacement panels shot up so if buying used check on the availability and price of replacement panels. I did try washing the panels from a pair of Ascents, as recommended on the ML forum. It didn’t do much harm but it certainly didn’t improve them!

The impedance drops quite alarmingly (not quite so much on the newer smaller models) and so a really good amp is mandatory. Factor in spending as much or more for an amp as the speakers, especially if you like listening to violins! Generally speaking anything substandard upstream will be cruelly exposed including bad recordings. Get it right and one can never go back to box speakers ever again - they can be that good.

As for sound quality they are inclined to be forensic in that they are impressively clear and with terrific resolution. Think the difference between a top class camera lens and a softer not so good lens. The image of the performers tends to be quite forward with them as opposed to Quads where the image falls (in my room at least) behind the speakers.

They can be used in smaller rooms. I used mine in a room 10x15ft but I didn’t mind the front of the speaker being about a meter from the wall behind them. I quite liked them fairly close to the side wall as it sounded more realistic to me than a highly focussed hifisort of sound. If you have a large room than do go for the larger models; my latest (electromotion) model sounded dire in my new room when I moved although the fact that my old room was well damped and the new one much livelier probably had as much of an effect as size.

Finally if you like the sort of alive, not coming from a box sound quality of stats than it might be worth having a listen to either MBL or German Physiks omnis. Sadly not cheap or often available used, but then again neither are the better Logan models. The most obvious difference to me being that the aural image of a performer has more depth and is relatively less two dimensional and the illusion of having someone playing an instrument at the end of the room is even more palpable.
 
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hearhere

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Finally if you like the sort of alive, not coming from a box sound quality of stats than it might be worth having a listen to either MBL or German Physiks omnis. Sadly not cheap or often available used, but then again neither are the better Logan models. The most obvious difference to me being that the aural image of a performer has more depth and is relatively less two dimensional and the illusion of having someone playing an instrument at the end of the room is even more palpable.
This is interesting. As mentioned above, I didn't keep my ML 13As because they didn't like being placed in the middle of my room with 12 ft behind one and 15 ft behind the other.

After selling the MLs (6 months from new) I reconsidered my room and thought I'd look at the omni option as my dining and kitchen areas are behind my speakers, where the sound is far from great from my Avantgarde horns.

I visited showrooms to listen to both German Physics and MBL speakers. These were set up in fairly conventional rooms. They sounded great with a huge sweet spot. The problem I found with both brands was their imaging was so far short of what my horns provide (to their small sweet spot); I had second thoughts about switching to omnis. I rate imaging very highly and wouldn't be prepared to sacrifice much of it for the benefit of an all-round sweet spot. Perhaps if I was switching from conventional box speakers, I'd not have noticed this as much as I did compared with horns.

At one stage I was thinking of acquiring the omni high frequency units alone (probably DDD units from GP) and rigging them with my existing speakers so I could switch between horn or omni top end and bass from the existing twin 12" active system in the Avantgardes. That way I could enjoy horns from my normal listening chair but onmis when elsewhere in the room. Great in theory, but the trouble was the huge difference in sensitivity and different XO frequencies, though this was quite small. I'd have to continually adjust the bass level and XO depending on which top end they were working with. This could probably be achieved using the Avantgarde XD software but it seemed a bit extreme! However it's still a back-burner project that's unlikely to be realised! Great to hear from an omni fan though. Peter
 

JANDL100

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@hearhere
Apologies to the OP. This is a bit of an omni diversion, but I went from Avantgarde Uno horn hybrids (which I really liked) via a few other speakers including ML CLS2z to MBL omnis and I can't say that the MBL experience is any inferior In regards to imaging (or anything else, come to that).

Different rooms, preferences, music etc probably.
 

tuga

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This is interesting. As mentioned above, I didn't keep my ML 13As because they didn't like being placed in the middle of my room with 12 ft behind one and 15 ft behind the other.

After selling the MLs (6 months from new) I reconsidered my room and thought I'd look at the omni option as my dining and kitchen areas are behind my speakers, where the sound is far from great from my Avantgarde horns.

I visited showrooms to listen to both German Physics and MBL speakers. These were set up in fairly conventional rooms. They sounded great with a huge sweet spot. The problem I found with both brands was their imaging was so far short of what my horns provide (to their small sweet spot); I had second thoughts about switching to omnis. I rate imaging very highly and wouldn't be prepared to sacrifice much of it for the benefit of an all-round sweet spot. Perhaps if I was switching from conventional box speakers, I'd not have noticed this as much as I did compared with horns.

At one stage I was thinking of acquiring the omni high frequency units alone (probably DDD units from GP) and rigging them with my existing speakers so I could switch between horn or omni top end and bass from the existing twin 12" active system in the Avantgardes. That way I could enjoy horns from my normal listening chair but onmis when elsewhere in the room. Great in theory, but the trouble was the huge difference in sensitivity and different XO frequencies, though this was quite small. I'd have to continually adjust the bass level and XO depending on which top end they were working with. This could probably be achieved using the Avantgarde XD software but it seemed a bit extreme! However it's still a back-burner project that's unlikely to be realised! Great to hear from an omni fan though. Peter

Your room is a very particular case where horns are probably the best topology but you cannot extrapolate your experience in that room to other rooms of different configuration and construction.
And then there's preference.
 

hearhere

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Your room is a very particular case where horns are probably the best topology but you cannot extrapolate your experience in that room to other rooms of different configuration and construction.
And then there's preference.
Yes, I agree. All I was trying to convey to the OP is that electrostatics (and particularly MLs) are more room dependent than conventional box speakers that I think he is more familiar with. In the right surroundings, they are second to none in many respects. I was poorly advised about the disadvantages of MLs (even on the MLO site) before buying them and I would have hugely appreciated them had they been spelt out.
 
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Camverton

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Yes, I agree. All I was trying to convey to the OP is that electrostatics (and particularly MLs) are more room dependent than conventional box speakers that I think he is more familiar with. In the right surroundings, they are second to none in many respects. I was poorly advised about the disadvantages of MLs (even on the MLO site) before buying them and I would have hugely appreciated them had they been spelt out.
Indeed, if there was ever a speaker that needs a home trial then Martin Logans are them. A lot of that could be down to the curved panel perhaps. Either way, they are a speaker that can go from sublime to dire with a change of room setup.

As for omnis their imaging depends on setup. Jerry in his room has superb imaging whereas I’ve opted to forgo a little bit of imaging precision in favour of having that realistic illusion of a performer at the end of my room, which I never tire of banging on about ☺️, not that Jerry’s setup is a slouch in that direction as well.

Like Martin Logans it is, I think, best to consider the speakers and the room together as a sound producer. In that respect they are the opposite of cardioid speakers, one gets you closer to an impression of an original performance the other connects you more with the recording file.
 

tuga

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One thing I think we all agree is that dipoles need space behind them and omnis need space around them. If requirement can be fulfilled these topologies can potentially produce more envelopment than forward-radiation boxes in 2-channel systems.
 

pmcuk

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I have a question about dipping high treble. It can be heard clearly in the YT video comparing it to Magnepan and S.Faber. The S.Fabers sound really bad here, but do have the top end, and so do the Magnepans. So is dipping treble due to:
- age and deterioration
- dirty panels needing a clean
- using a valve amp or amp that doesn't "do" low impedance treble

Or could be all the above, or something else again? Comments? Solutions?

Magnepan MG2.7qr (with subwoofer Bowers and Wilkins ASW500) vs Martin Logan Aerius vs Sonus Faber Concerto Grand Piano. Magnepan best and good treble, ML down in treble but good mids, S.Faber tinny and worst
 

Non-Smoking Man

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I have visted your flat in Kensington, and I'm aware of your preference for valve amps in general and DHTs in particular and I'd be hard put to think of a worse choice.
1. They are difficult to drive;
2. Your room isnt big enough;
3. There is a difficulty with the amalgamation of 2 very different types of driver.

Just my opinion.
They divide opinion in these parts if we were to be totally honest.

Jack NSM
 
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