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Was offered a loan by a local dealer of some Martin Logan Vistas on demo - £4,000 worth of entry level esl-cone hybrids. Were a little out of my league financially as they were essentially new but he was kind enough to let me have a go at them. To be fair I might well have pushed the boat out to get them if they wereseriously ESL beaters,but it's always a risk giving anything else to a dyed in the wool Quad nut like yours truly.
Anyway it's been an interesting time. The first night I spent listening only to CD (as I had sold my LP12 and was waiting to collect its replacement).
Was quite enjoyable but things took a strange turn when the wife sat down to join me for the Buxtehude Op1s. ''Why does the viola da gamba sound like it's coming out of the bottom of the speaker while the violin iscoming from higher up?' she says.
Checking this out, it seemed to be an artefact of the crossover frequency and the placement of the panels and woofer (this jumped out at her without her being told about the construction at all). With chamber music the crossover is quite obvious, especially once it's pointed out - I checked the ML site and the crossover is around 450hz, abouttheAabove middle C. On strings that's above most violinparts,in the middle of the viola register,and right at the top of most cello parts- so the instruments in a string quarter split fairly closelytop bottom, giving a weird sensation of a pair of tall violinists, a midget cellist and a slightly confused viola player!
I didn't notice this effect at all with some Donald Fagan which sounded very lively, and actually they sounded pretty good with orchestras too because the sound is much more evenly distributed vertically (they really do orchestras rather well, capturingwell the richness and harmonic complexity). High sopranos also sounded very good - pretty much as good as the Quads with the supertweeters. Janowitz was in her element. You don't notice the crossover so much with pianos either because the low notes produce a lot of harmonics that carry on up the frequency range.
What I thought they were very nice for was acoustic &jazz, much more air and space than the Quads and they did low double bass surprisingly well for the size of the little woofer, except for the verylowest notes (you'd need a sub I think anyway). I don't think I've heard John Martyn sound better, heard some new Rhodes piano details I'd never clocked before, not bad for an album I first bought when I was at school in the 70s!
But there was a bit of fluff in the bellybutton. Maybe it was my EAR V20 (only 20 watts) that wasstruggling to drive the 8in woofer cones (supposed to be 90db but seemed a harder load than my 86db Quad ESLs) or perhaps it wasa characteristic of the speakers, but thelower midrange,the bit below thecrossover, seemed a bit on the thin side compared to therichness and volume of the panel.I found myself turning them up to hear the lower registers, only to find that the treble then became a bit overpowering - almost like the woofer and the panel weren't all that well matched for sensitivity. Would be interesting to see the impedence figures on these, whether it's a design flaw or just a problem with low power valves. Might be no problem at all with 200w SS monoblocs of course ....
Indeed, I think these would be rathera different story with a slightly bigger woofer gettingmore power and maybe a tweaked crossover to manage the blend a bit less abruptly(the panel needs to come lower, I would say at least another octave to 200hz or lower as the crossover frequency is more obvious than in a conventional speaker because of the physical layout, so needs to be placed somewhere there's less musical 'action'. But then again maybe I just notice the effect of crossovers more than most people having had full-range horns for a while before going tothe Quads which are also full range of course.
Interesting experience, they were definitely brighter than the Quads (which fade out by 14-15khz, hence the Townshend supertweeters I use with them) and have a richer expression of harmonics, and a lot more house-friendly shape ... they are probably still better than any box speaker I've heard in a long while, and if I listened to more orchestral music and less vocal and chamberwe might have a different conclusion ... but all together whileI could probably live with them, they don't quite do everything quite so well as the Quads do, at least with chamber and baroque music, through my valve amp.
All that sounds as if these were somewhatless than fantastic (especially for £4000 new) but actually it's been a bit of a game of two halves andI've beengetting along much better with them this evening, breaking in the Townshend Rock Reference I just brought home (see post in the 2channel forum). While the design and power limitations above still apply, theRock seems to be feeding them with better information which theML panels in particular are making very nice use of.
Anyway I'm most grateful to the local dealer for the chance to hear these, I wont be buying this time butI'm beginning to appreciate what we miss by internet box swapping (and what it costs us in hassle, downtime and a slice off the price every time we do a catch-and-release exercise) - some dealers are a long way from the pushy 'wot brands we sell is the only good stuff on the market stereotype' and the better ones ideally should be supported where possible/sensible.
Pic below, see turntable-sized gap!
Anyway it's been an interesting time. The first night I spent listening only to CD (as I had sold my LP12 and was waiting to collect its replacement).
Was quite enjoyable but things took a strange turn when the wife sat down to join me for the Buxtehude Op1s. ''Why does the viola da gamba sound like it's coming out of the bottom of the speaker while the violin iscoming from higher up?' she says.
Checking this out, it seemed to be an artefact of the crossover frequency and the placement of the panels and woofer (this jumped out at her without her being told about the construction at all). With chamber music the crossover is quite obvious, especially once it's pointed out - I checked the ML site and the crossover is around 450hz, abouttheAabove middle C. On strings that's above most violinparts,in the middle of the viola register,and right at the top of most cello parts- so the instruments in a string quarter split fairly closelytop bottom, giving a weird sensation of a pair of tall violinists, a midget cellist and a slightly confused viola player!
I didn't notice this effect at all with some Donald Fagan which sounded very lively, and actually they sounded pretty good with orchestras too because the sound is much more evenly distributed vertically (they really do orchestras rather well, capturingwell the richness and harmonic complexity). High sopranos also sounded very good - pretty much as good as the Quads with the supertweeters. Janowitz was in her element. You don't notice the crossover so much with pianos either because the low notes produce a lot of harmonics that carry on up the frequency range.
What I thought they were very nice for was acoustic &jazz, much more air and space than the Quads and they did low double bass surprisingly well for the size of the little woofer, except for the verylowest notes (you'd need a sub I think anyway). I don't think I've heard John Martyn sound better, heard some new Rhodes piano details I'd never clocked before, not bad for an album I first bought when I was at school in the 70s!
But there was a bit of fluff in the bellybutton. Maybe it was my EAR V20 (only 20 watts) that wasstruggling to drive the 8in woofer cones (supposed to be 90db but seemed a harder load than my 86db Quad ESLs) or perhaps it wasa characteristic of the speakers, but thelower midrange,the bit below thecrossover, seemed a bit on the thin side compared to therichness and volume of the panel.I found myself turning them up to hear the lower registers, only to find that the treble then became a bit overpowering - almost like the woofer and the panel weren't all that well matched for sensitivity. Would be interesting to see the impedence figures on these, whether it's a design flaw or just a problem with low power valves. Might be no problem at all with 200w SS monoblocs of course ....
Indeed, I think these would be rathera different story with a slightly bigger woofer gettingmore power and maybe a tweaked crossover to manage the blend a bit less abruptly(the panel needs to come lower, I would say at least another octave to 200hz or lower as the crossover frequency is more obvious than in a conventional speaker because of the physical layout, so needs to be placed somewhere there's less musical 'action'. But then again maybe I just notice the effect of crossovers more than most people having had full-range horns for a while before going tothe Quads which are also full range of course.
Interesting experience, they were definitely brighter than the Quads (which fade out by 14-15khz, hence the Townshend supertweeters I use with them) and have a richer expression of harmonics, and a lot more house-friendly shape ... they are probably still better than any box speaker I've heard in a long while, and if I listened to more orchestral music and less vocal and chamberwe might have a different conclusion ... but all together whileI could probably live with them, they don't quite do everything quite so well as the Quads do, at least with chamber and baroque music, through my valve amp.
All that sounds as if these were somewhatless than fantastic (especially for £4000 new) but actually it's been a bit of a game of two halves andI've beengetting along much better with them this evening, breaking in the Townshend Rock Reference I just brought home (see post in the 2channel forum). While the design and power limitations above still apply, theRock seems to be feeding them with better information which theML panels in particular are making very nice use of.
Anyway I'm most grateful to the local dealer for the chance to hear these, I wont be buying this time butI'm beginning to appreciate what we miss by internet box swapping (and what it costs us in hassle, downtime and a slice off the price every time we do a catch-and-release exercise) - some dealers are a long way from the pushy 'wot brands we sell is the only good stuff on the market stereotype' and the better ones ideally should be supported where possible/sensible.
Pic below, see turntable-sized gap!
