Linn Owners

Metal Plinth makers?

John Hirsch

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Who makes an aftermarket metal plinth for the LP 12? Has anyone had any experience? I remember that Edmund/Hercules/Mose made a four piece metal plinth.

Best,

John Hirsch
johnhirsch52@gmail.com
202-999-5563 (US)
 

9designs

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So what improvements have people heard when going to a machined Plinth? Where has it ranked in the Linn upgrade hierarchy?
 

Ben Webster

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The non-Linn machined plinths sound different from an original LP12. People who heard them told me, that this has nothing to do with an LP12.

Linn said the Linn prototype was better than an original LP12, but the difference didn’t justify the extra costs. So Linn decided not to bring it on the market.

But today Linn does‘t care about high prices. So maybe a machined plinth for the 50 birthday?
 
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Rille

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What else I could imagine would be to use the current wooden plinth as a frame for a receptacle for the sub-chassis made of metal as an insert.

Maybe also a solution that connects the top plate with the bottom plate.

But with the metal version, the Lp12 would lose a lot of its beautiful appearance, which is so wonderfully timeless.

On the other hand, my LP12 sounds fantastic right now.
 

9designs

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Steve
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What else I could imagine would be to use the current wooden plinth as a frame for a receptacle for the sub-chassis made of metal as an insert.

Maybe also a solution that connects the top plate with the bottom plate.

But with the metal version, the Lp12 would lose a lot of its beautiful appearance, which is so wonderfully timeless.

On the other hand, my LP12 sounds fantastic right now.
Already running my design version of that....
Plinth is braced with an aluminium insert/spar. Top plate connects to it.... motor is divorced on its own top plate.
Plus a 3D printed 2 part chassis
 

saxo

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I owned a Tangerine Karmen top plate.
This aluminium plate is seriously machined, its profile inspires rigidity with perfect flatness. Clearly and technically all the ingredients are there to improve the Linn top plate. Compared to the Linn top plate, Karmen is easy to install, the strength of the screws naturally requires care, the threaded rods are automatically perfectly vertical. I was immediately satisfied with Karmen, with the bass present and tight, and with the impression that the information was better perceived than with top plate Linn. Gradually and incidentally my passion for listening became less intense with Karmen ? After a year with Karmen I re-installed my Linn top plate, from the very first listen the passion returned and the whole substance of the music was felt again. With its qualities and manufacturing excellence, in my impression, the sound of Karmen provides detail and takes away some of the musical essence. This experience suggests caution, a perfectly designed product is not always logically better.
A rigid one-piece base, all noble metal, sounds exciting; perhaps the rendition or some part of it becomes better, or perhaps the music present but more chilling?
 

ThomasOK

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I owned a Tangerine Karmen top plate.
This aluminium plate is seriously machined, its profile inspires rigidity with perfect flatness. Clearly and technically all the ingredients are there to improve the Linn top plate. Compared to the Linn top plate, Karmen is easy to install, the strength of the screws naturally requires care, the threaded rods are automatically perfectly vertical. I was immediately satisfied with Karmen, with the bass present and tight, and with the impression that the information was better perceived than with top plate Linn. Gradually and incidentally my passion for listening became less intense with Karmen ? After a year with Karmen I re-installed my Linn top plate, from the very first listen the passion returned and the whole substance of the music was felt again. With its qualities and manufacturing excellence, in my impression, the sound of Karmen provides detail and takes away some of the musical essence. This experience suggests caution, a perfectly designed product is not always logically better.
A rigid one-piece base, all noble metal, sounds exciting; perhaps the rendition or some part of it becomes better, or perhaps the music present but more chilling?
Although I did not spend a year with one, I have installed 2 Khan top plates, the predecessor to the Karmen, and also evaluated the Khan and the Karmen here. My experience echoes that written above. I find the aluminum top plates to highlight some details but at the expense of others and also at the expense of musical naturalness. In the end I have removed all but one of the Khans, including some I didn't install, and reinstalled original Linn top plates. Those people were all quite happy.

As to the one-piece plinth/top plate, I haven't heard one but I have my doubts. I did a lot of listening to and comparing of custom plinths made of various woods several years back. I did A/Bs with two identically configured LP12s as identically setup as I could make them. There were clear musical differences with different woods and even sometimes with different plinths of the same species of wood. The worst sounding custom plinth I heard was made from catalox which had a tap tone almost like a bar of steel. Considering the tap tone of the best sounding plinths vs. the catalox I would have to think an all aluminum plinth would not be a great idea. We'll see if Linn proves me wrong.
 

13th Duke of Wymbourne

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Perhaps more investment is needed in the suspension design so the sub-chassis is truly isolated from the plinth. From an engineering perspective I would think that more cost effective than a CNCed plinth. But you know how audiophile companies love CNC :)
 

llatpoh

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Perhaps more investment is needed in the suspension design so the sub-chassis is truly isolated from the plinth. From an engineering perspective I would think that more cost effective than a CNCed plinth. But you know how audiophile companies love CNC :)
I agree there is room for improvement, ideally a top plate should be rigid and form a strong bond to the plinth, while at the same time be able to dissipate vibrations from the motor and suspension. A simple sheet of metal cannot possibly do both, which may explain why the OP liked moving away from one type of coloration to another and back.
 

9designs

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So the design I’m working on and running on one deck the motor doesn’t fix to the top plate, remove and simplify problem rather than over engineer it. 😉
 

13th Duke of Wymbourne

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I have wondered how much of the reported improvements for Radikal and Lingo4 are due to the changed motor mounting - using a compliant washer between motor and top plate.

Also, I'd ignored the motor/belt as another path from plinth/outside world into the sub-chassis as well as from the plinth through the suspension. An interesting thought.
 
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saxo

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Successful upgrading is not easy. The resonance frequency, depending on the assembly with the composition of the elements, changes on the sound production. As with the principle of a tuning fork, a match between the Karmen plate mounted on LP12 and the Linn top plate shows that the transmission changes in nature. I imagine that the general preservation of the fundamental frequency of lp12 remains an essential requirement for Linn.
 

9designs

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And what would be the problem that you are solving?
In a word Motor vibration.
As 13 Duke says, how much of latest Radikal was a better rubber washer!!

I would say a tuning fork is what we don't want.

We can separate the deck into two zones, Isolation and playback. (A boundary diagram for any engineer reading and use to creating DFMEA's)
The chassis holding the bearing and arm is the playback zone, which in an ideal world will experience no external vibration. The motor, plinth, top plate etc are all on the isolation side of the equation.

We don't want any vibration crossing the boundary between the two, as that would disturb the interface between the record and the stylus., causing distortion or colorations and loss of detail retrieval.

The motor has two functions, spin at a constant stable rpm, have minimum vibration so as not to disturb the playback area. I consider the power supplies since Lingo have managed to get a good constant speed. (yes they have got better but how much does that add to the SQ) With each version Linn have provided better motor control, to reduce the vibration.

So look at from a another angle (cheaper than yet another expensive PSU upgrade) Accept the motor will vibrate, now manage that vibration, so that it doesn't make it's way into the playback area. Now the type of PSU becomes irrelevant. (Ignoring speed accuracy).

On my second deck I've been trying out some mods. The top plate is now separated into two. One to support the motor, the other the springs/chassis. The motor has it's own mount and is anchored down to a strengthening spar added to the plinth. Motor vibration is taken down and away into the plinth, which is grounded to the shelf with rubber feet, not a tramoplin.
Any vibration that circulates around the plinth, now has a much longer path to enter in the main top plate, the longer the path and the more adsorbate materials it passes the more energy that is lost. I 'm also trying out a non metallic chassis, it's a two part chassis, along the TP Akula concept.
So making a one piece machined plinth does seem a bit counter intuitive. Back to the tuning fork, it will all sing and ring together, perhaps the extra mass has some dampening.

Testing/comparing isn't a simple apples to apples task, my other deck is at Radikal 1, Keel, SE, Kandid, Urika1, so all Linn. The second deck runs Ekos2/Krystal original arm cable, Lingo 1, Cirkus/Tranquility.
The DIY deck in a separate system was sounding good, enough to make me put them side by side and compare. For sure the Linn deck was better, but not by enough, some was tonal difference. So I started swapping parts between the two decks. Removed the Urika and Tranquility.
Having done the Lingo to Radikal demo in the past when I ordered mine, I wasn't missing much on the deck running Lingo. So I swapped the arm and cartridges over.
In Linn hierarchy, the Radikal/Keel deck should still win, even with the lesser arm and cart.

The difference was smaller now and the DIY deck was just as musical. Putting a T Cable and Tranquillity back on saw it sounding the better deck. It lost maybe a little of the slam and kick of the Linn deck, in similar way a Kore does to a Keel. (For me they are just as musical as each other).
I wasn't missing the Radikal it seemed, so I feel as a motor mod it works and I perhaps don't need to bay a second Radikal now. (May add a 3rd party one, to try a loose even more vibration)
I do need to take the chassis on to the next design level as combination of machined aluminium and carbon printed support. Again better dividing the isolation and playback boundaries.

Been a busy couple of weeks :)
 

John76

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I have a copy of the Linn Magazine which was provided to Linn dealers back in the 1980’s to distribute to customers. There’s a section that mentions the various design aspects of the LP12 from a more technical description.

In regards to what they refer to as the base plate to which the motor is mounted to. It says it acts as a mechanical energy sink: vibrations from the motor that might have been transmitted along the belt and into the system are instead converted into mechanical noise dissipated without harmful effects over the plates entire surface.

This means that although, with your ear close to a Sondek, you can hear the motor, the noise actually has minimal effect upon the reproductive quality.
 

llatpoh

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May 27, 2022
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I have a copy of the Linn Magazine which was provided to Linn dealers back in the 1980’s to distribute to customers. There’s a section that mentions the various design aspects of the LP12 from a more technical description.

In regards to what they refer to as the base plate to which the motor is mounted to. It says it acts as a mechanical energy sink: vibrations from the motor that might have been transmitted along the belt and into the system are instead converted into mechanical noise dissipated without harmful effects over the plates entire surface.

This means that although, with your ear close to a Sondek, you can hear the motor, the noise actually has minimal effect upon the reproductive quality.
A simple 1.5mm thick sheet of stainless steel has no vibration dissipation properties, that's just dealer propaganda.
 
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