Linn Owners

Metal Plinth makers?

akamatsu

Michael
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Michael
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  1. No
A simple 1.5mm thick sheet of stainless steel has no vibration dissipation properties, that's just dealer propaganda.
It depends on the frequency and amplitude of the vibrations, and the size (mass) of the sheet of stainless. Nothing here has been quantified. I think to affect a change, a quantitative analysis will need to be done. I think the problem moved beyond being merely qualitative a long time ago.
 

Nestor Turton

Nestor Turton
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I admire folk who have the patience and skill to modify their decks. I’m not as adept and happy to leave it to Linn. Only 3rd party mod I tried was Tranquility, but subsequently traded in for a Karousel upgrade.

I would only consider a machined Titanium plinth if Linn made it; perhaps when they release the Direct Drive LP12DD. Though I doubt, I’ll be able to afford it.
 

ThomasOK

LP12 Whisperer, Lejonklou importer
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Thomas O'Keefe
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
A simple 1.5mm thick sheet of stainless steel has no vibration dissipation properties, that's just dealer propaganda.
That wasn't dealer propaganda, it was propaganda directly from Linn, hence Linn Magazine. I believe the idea is that the top plate sinks the vibration into the wooden plinth, but I'm not sure it is stated that way (my Linn Magazine is at home).
 

llatpoh

Wammer
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May 27, 2022
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The Free State Of Texas, USA
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
That wasn't dealer propaganda, it was propaganda directly from Linn, hence Linn Magazine. I believe the idea is that the top plate sinks the vibration into the wooden plinth, but I'm not sure it is stated that way (my Linn Magazine is at home).
Wrong choice of words on my end, I stand corrected, but I'll add wood is not known for vibration dissipation properties either.
 

akamatsu

Michael
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Oct 9, 2018
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Point Roberts, WA, USA (Vancouver)
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Michael
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
That wasn't dealer propaganda, it was propaganda directly from Linn, hence Linn Magazine. I believe the idea is that the top plate sinks the vibration into the wooden plinth, but I'm not sure it is stated that way (my Linn Magazine is at home).
Yes. The top plate is anchored to the plinth, thus recruiting it to the vibration damping task.
 

sktn77a

Audio Dinosaur
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Nov 11, 2014
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NC, USA
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Keith
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
A lot of the stuff Linn published in the 1980's was... wishful thinking at best and utter tripe at worst (eg "Linn tight").
 
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13th Duke of Wymbourne

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Aug 18, 2018
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Dana Point, Ca
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Besides, the platter/bearing/sub chassis/arm board/tonearm vibrate all the time. It doesn't matter up to a point as the entire assembly is rigidly coupled together so that there's minimal relative movement between record surface and cartridge.
But, I suspect, only if excited in the vertical plane at the center of mass.
 

Nestor Turton

Nestor Turton
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  1. No
A lot of the stuff Linn published in the 1980's was... wishful thinking at best and utter tripe at worst (eg "Linn tight").
Lots of companies publish dubious marketing influenced white papers. Naim explained why their music server ripped better than a computer.

https://www.naimaudio.com/sites/default/files/products/downloads/files/naim_cd_ripping_engine.pdf
Went to a demo where Naim tried to show its ripper was better than a Mac. To me, they showed NDX didn’t play AIFFs well (poorly implemented renderer perhaps?). Don’t know if they corrected it, but one of its superior rippers used the wrong offset.

It’s makers of audiophile cables, switches and linear PSUs who take the biscuit IMO. Only once did I hear an audiophile Ethernet cable make a difference; it was dreadful.

However, marketing folk where I worked rewrote my design papers. Apparently everything was innovative, world class or state of the art even when I used common off the shelf components. I mostly avoided SOTA devices to keep costs down.

I’m not knowledgeable when it comes to mechanical engineering so couldn’t say whether Linn has exaggerated or not. Still sounds good irrespective.
 
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13th Duke of Wymbourne

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Dana Point, Ca
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
No. The assembly is rigidly coupled in all directions.
If I play a record and make a single small tap on the arm board as close to the center of mass as I can (without touching the platter or the arm) play can continue without jumping. Taping the spindle can give the same result but if I tap the front or rear of the arm board mistracking is guaranteed (as best as I can tell as I don't have a calibrated tap). Everything may be rigidly coupled to the arm mounting collar but the stylus is only coupled to the groove by a couple of grams of tracking force so any rocking of the platform could resolve enough lateral force to jump the stylus. My take is that the suspension only really rejects movement that is vertical and equal in all three suspension bolts, then the subchassis bounces only vertically and level. Anything else will cause some rocking and relative motion between cantilever and groove. This is why I mused about a better suspension system being a more cost effective upgrade than fancy plinths - something that can handle some lateral movement and make that movement common to each suspension point.
 

akamatsu

Michael
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Oct 9, 2018
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Point Roberts, WA, USA (Vancouver)
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Michael
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Even if rigidly coupled and having a vertical bounce the assembly is not completely immune to vibrations transmitted across the top-plate.
The idea is that any vibration that enters the assembly is seen at every point in the assembly, thus greatly reducing relative motion between record surface and cartridge.
 
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Moomintroll

Fictional Character - not to be taken literally
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May 20, 2014
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HiFi Trade?
  1. No
if I tap the front or rear of the arm board mistracking is guaranteed
I would expect that, but I really don’t think Linn expect us to be doing this whilst playing a record. I imagine there are many things we could subject the turntable to, which would compromise record playback, but it doesn‘t, necessarily, mean that Linn need to expend resource to address these.

’troll
 
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9designs

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Steve
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Well it might have been Linn's idea or intention back in the day that the top plate was grounded out to the plinth, but history has shown that didn't work out to well.
For one you could feel the motor vibration on the top plate with your finger tips. They added an extra mounting stud, we have seen many power supply upgrades looking to reduce the motor vibration. So no the top plate doesn't do what was suggested in the magazine anywhere good enough.

The that vibration can cause wobble, which I guess is why some claim replacing the springs with silicone bushes works. Not tried that yet, I have 3D printed some TPU cones to replace the springs as an experiment some time.
Using trampolin feet allows the deck to wobble from motor vibration, then the plinth is also not grounded or restrained so it shakes like a jelly, disturbing the stylus in the groove. Which I guess is why on a ridged shelf with early decks I preferred the hard rubber feet. With the later PSU options this seems to have be reduced to the point where the isolation from external source becomes the greater benefit.

The bit you don't want external vibration is in the bearing and the arm mount. So why have it rigidly connected to the suspension attachment points as in the Keel? Working on that at present.
 

llatpoh

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May 27, 2022
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The Free State Of Texas, USA
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
The idea is that any vibration that enters the assembly is seen at every point in the assembly, thus greatly reducing relative motion between record surface and cartridge.
I'm not saying the three point spring suspended suspension doesn't work well, the point is it's still affected by vibrations coming across the top-plate and plinth, otherwise Linn wouldn't have gone to great lengths in developing quiter motors and power supplies.
 
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ThomasOK

LP12 Whisperer, Lejonklou importer
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Oct 19, 2018
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Westland, MI USA
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Thomas O'Keefe
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
If I play a record and make a single small tap on the arm board as close to the center of mass as I can (without touching the platter or the arm) play can continue without jumping. Taping the spindle can give the same result but if I tap the front or rear of the arm board mistracking is guaranteed (as best as I can tell as I don't have a calibrated tap). Everything may be rigidly coupled to the arm mounting collar but the stylus is only coupled to the groove by a couple of grams of tracking force so any rocking of the platform could resolve enough lateral force to jump the stylus. My take is that the suspension only really rejects movement that is vertical and equal in all three suspension bolts, then the subchassis bounces only vertically and level. Anything else will cause some rocking and relative motion between cantilever and groove. This is why I mused about a better suspension system being a more cost effective upgrade than fancy plinths - something that can handle some lateral movement and make that movement common to each suspension point.
Hence, don't take your LP12 on your boat!

The rigid coupling of the arm to the platter through the sub chassis has nothing to do with major motions of the suspension disturbing the stylus to record interface. It has everything to do with keeping the acoustic energy in the room from causing relative motion between the cartridge body and the record, reducing the ability of the stylus to pull the tiniest vibrations out of the groove.
 

13th Duke of Wymbourne

Wammer
Wammer
Aug 18, 2018
418
665
113
Dana Point, Ca
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Thomas, my question is how well is the sub-chassis isolated if the vibration is not purely vertical? Maybe the suspension does work well in all planes for very small movements but you're right that those movements are exceedingly small and if the suspension was perfect why can we hear differences in plinths, top-plates and support tables? Note, 9 Designs did suggest it was as much, if not more, about isolating the sub-chassis from motor and from the outside world.

I don't know about acoustic feedback. I get the idea of the rigid closed loop (it has been talked about for decades. though I still think the business end of the arm is not rigidly coupled to anything). It is a nice idea that acoustic energy falls on all the moving parts of that loop so that the whole thing moves together but is that too simple an idea? I don't know, but the constituent parts are different sizes and different densities and there could be mechanical reflections around that loop makes me think it will be complicated than everything moving in harmony. A good experiment would be to take different turntable designs fitted with the same model of cartridge point a speaker at each from the same distance at the same volume and record the output of the phono preamp. That should show which is most immune to acoustic feedback (of course that might be a bit simplistic too but a worthy first step for the terminally curious).
 

ThomasOK

LP12 Whisperer, Lejonklou importer
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Oct 19, 2018
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Thomas O'Keefe
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
I understand your question about horizontal motion. One thing you have to be aware of is that you don't want any significant horizontal motion as is obvious if you have had skipping due to wobbly floors. Also horizontal motion will likely have a greater effect on platter rotation as it will be inline with the belt moving the platter. The suspension is basically designed to quickly change horizontal motion into vertical which is less likely to disturb the motion of the important parts.

It is true that the suspension is also designed to separate the platter/sub chassis/arm/cartridge from the motor. This was especially important in the days when the LP12 was designed, as motor vibration was a significantly bigger problem then as opposed to now. However, there is still some small amount of motor noise that needs to be dealt with or you would be able to strap the motor to the sub chassis.

I don't agree with the idea that the softer mounting of the Radikal 2 motor, or of the Lingo 4 for that matter, is the solution, nor that it is the biggest part of the improvements of these units. You will notice that the Majik LP12 still uses the very rigid mounting for the motor that has been used for decades - there has been no change to a softer mounting. What most probably don't know is that in the very early years there was a more compliant mounting using a thin piece of cork. Linn found that the more rigid mounting improved the performance substantially. They even converted the dome shaped washers used from aluminum to stainless steel quite a few years back for an even more solid connection. The type and amount of damping used in the motor mounts of the Radikal 2 and Lingo 4 are completely different, as they both are from the solid mounting of the Majik motor. I am pretty sure that each motor has a unique noise spectrum and level and the mounting systems for each is designed to deal with that vibration in the optimal manner. The vibration spectrum of the DC motor in the Radikal is quite a bit different from that of the 12 Volt AC Lingo 4 motor driven by the FPDA created waveforms which are also quite different from the vibrations of a 120/240Volt AC motor driven by the AC waveform or the waveform created by the Valhalla or Lingo 1 through 3. Mounting the motor completely separately may allow for more motion between the motor and the bearing/platter which is also not a good idea.

Now on to the connection of the items inside the loop. Yes they are made of different materials but Linn has gone to great lengths to make those materials all work together. They are all very complimentary. Also Linn is very strong on using the there point connection to assure the rigidity of the connections and eliminate unwanted motions. This is obvious in some places and less so on others. The cartridges from the Krystal on up are all three point mount designs as was the Troika, the first of this type. All of them from the Troika on have had aluminum bodies. All of them have raised lands so that the top of the cartridge only contacts the headshell at three, high-pressure points. In the Ekstatik and the Kendo the material of these raised lands has been changed for the first time to a bronze/aluminum alloy that Linn states allows for an even better interface of the cartridge with the headshell. Note also that all Linn headshells are aluminum, with the Ekos SE/1 machined from solid billet (possibly the Arko as well but I'm not sure). But that is just one interface. All Linn arms (as opposed to those like the ProJect 9CC, Jelco SA250 Linn and Krane used on versions of the Majik LP12) have a three point contact of the arm pillar with the mounting collar. There is a cutout opposite the set screw such that the arm tube is pressed against two edges by the third point of the set screw. This has been the case ever since the Ittok LVII, Linn's first arm. The Keel is also designed so that the bearing housing contacts it at three points as there are three lands on the underside machined out of the aluminum that the top of the bearing housing presses against. This is something that I have not seen on any of the third party copies. Those are just the visible ones. But I was told by a Linn tech person that it continues inside the Ekos SE/1 (probably the Arko as well) where a three point attachment is used on some of the parts. I haven't seen one taken apart so I can't say where but the headshell to the arm tube and the arm tube to the bearing structure are two likely points.

All of these rigid connections, and the materials used in the construction of the parts, are there to help assure that acoustical energy that hits the cartridge/arm also hits the platter/bearing and sub chassis in the same way so as to nullify as much as possible a differential movement between the arm/cartridge body and the platter/mat/record that would interfere with the ability of the stylus to extract the maximum of music from the groove. Of course there are compromises involved in all of this, just as there are in anything in the physical world. Also obviously you can't have a suspension that is perfect hence the fact that things like top plate materials, plinth materials and the stand you put the LP12 on do all have an effect on the musical reproduction.

But it is in knowing which compromises cause the least musical harm that the brilliance of the LP12 design shines through. That Linn has managed those compromises very well and balanced the designs of the various parts expertly is to me proved by the tremendous amount of musical enjoyment I am able to extract from my records with my Klimax LP12. It is further proved by the impressive list of upgrades to every part over the years, with almost all of them being actual musical improvements over previous models. (I know there will be some contention here and there as to whether parts like the original Arkiv was better than the beloved Troika for instance, but such minor things aside it is still quite an enviable record.) It is also indicated by the fact that I have yet to hear a third party component for the LP12 itself (leaving out arms and cartridges) that I felt was an improvement over the ones Linn made with two exceptions: the Rubikon sub chassis which was musically between the Cirkus version and the Keel but was later outperformed by the Kore for less money, and many of the custom LP12 plinths that Chris Harban of Woodsong Audio used to build (and sadly no longer does).

Bringing the arms and cartridges back into the conversation, while I have heard other arms and cartridges I felt sounded good on the LP12, a number of which I have customers using on their LP12s (some that come to mind are Koetsu, Ortofon, Grado, Lyra, AT, Dynavector, Naim Aro, Grace 707, Breuer, among others), I have not heard any I would own over an Ekos 2 or Ekos SE/1 in terms of arms and over an Akiva, Kandid or Ekstatik in cartridges (or even a Troika when you could get them). There is a synergy between Linn arms and cartridges (as there obviously is between Linn arms and the LP12) that even other cartridge makers have alluded to. But if you prefer the flavors of other cartridges you can certainly get stunning perfromance from a Koetsu. Lyra, Dynavector, Ortofon Cadenza, etc. in an Ekos SE/1 or an Ekos 2.

Hopefully this answers some of your questions.
 

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