middle of the night stupid thought no.1

Don Ruperto

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I am bemused (is that the word?) by the determination of so many folks to dismiss CDs nowadays.  Not on here it has to be said, but in day to day life.  Sadly that attitude includes the hifi magazines.  There's an industry out there and it wants to sell you something!  Very often it's a £30 LP or a £500 Rega lookalike turntable.... 

I never sold any of my vinyl when so many other people were busy getting rid - now I cherish my collection.  I expect some of my LPs are worth good money now.  At present it's possible to buy CDs for peanuts, because so many fools people are disposing of them.  Give it 20 years and any half interesting CD will be worth money.  To be honest, much of the exotic stuff is already climbing in value.  Anybody want to buy a Fairouz CD?  Or Franco's TPOK Jazz?  Maybe some Lucho Bermudez? 

The CD rot thing is 99% nonsense.  In 30 years I've only ever seen one CD with the mythical "rot".  And as we all know, CDs can withstand a bit of rough handling far better than vinyl.  It's the music that really matters and as the years go by... it's just commonsense that many CDs will be sought after. 

I saw something on eBay last week that kept me scratching my head for hours. There are folks on there successfully selling job lots of mixed LPs - 12 for £30 sort of thing. The seller picks a selection for you and the punter ends up with some mixed Ken Dodd and Showaddywaddy - unbelievable!  I found this really  hard to fathom, but the listing's pictures told the real story.  People aren't buying these LPs to play, they're buying them to put in trendy little racks to go with their trendy little turntables.  It's a lifestyle choice or something similar. 

 
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pmcuk

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CD rot is real though rare - applies to my Harnoncourt Bach Cantata CDs. I think with CDs and LPs it's supply and demand - rare stuff has value, and the rest is charity shop. The problem is collections. Few people have the time or strength of mind to list items individually on eBay and profits would be tiny after charges. It's a bit like selling valve collections - some are valuable and TV set valves are landfill. There's just too much redundant hardware - mountains of it. Applies to cars, clothes and most other things. Junk is a real issue in a consumer world. And that's not even to speak of the radioactive junk needing disposal. Companies have never been invoiced for the junk they create - nobody cares. 

 
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toms wait

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Ok .. you have a top class turntable - stop the what if? 

You will get different flavours of sound and presentation by changing it but the thing is - what do you not like about your turntable and the sound it produces?  Once you have identified if there is a problem to your ears and what it is, then you can go about sorting it .. other than that leave alone and just enjoy the music .. 
Twas only a jest I have had it with equipment, had a Voyd and an LP12 in the past and always find it different but not necessarily better.

My ears are the problem without digital assistance they barely work at all.

More like a round of Nagaoka vs MC...
Had nice MC's in the past as well, Lyra's, Miltek, Micro Benz, same tale.

Happy as is apart from the nightmare scenario's.

 
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toms wait

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Post script

Just bought It's Immaterial House for Sale on Vinyl, been 27 years or so in the making and I have the other two on vinyl so it makes sense to have this.

It's immaterial Song was going to be one of the hard cd's to find but that nightmare is over now, sorry to waste your time guys.

 

Iceman 16

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Post script

Just bought It's Immaterial House for Sale on Vinyl, been 27 years or so in the making and I have the other two on vinyl so it makes sense to have this.

It's immaterial Song was going to be one of the hard cd's to find but that nightmare is over now, sorry to waste your time guys.
Oi time to sleep go to bed. Don’t think of selling your house at 3:00 in the morning. :D

:peace:

 
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toms wait

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I have been in the same house since 1988 and occasionally dream we have moved, it is a very disconcerting and ugly feeling.

Der I only just got it house for sale :D

 
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rabski

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CD rot is real though rare - applies to my Harnoncourt Bach Cantata CDs. I think with CDs and LPs it's supply and demand - rare stuff has value, and the rest is charity shop. The problem is collections. Few people have the time or strength of mind to list items individually on eBay and profits would be tiny after charges. It's a bit like selling valve collections - some are valuable and TV set valves are landfill. There's just too much redundant hardware - mountains of it. Applies to cars, clothes and most other things. Junk is a real issue in a consumer world. And that's not even to speak of the radioactive junk needing disposal. Companies have never been invoiced for the junk they create - nobody cares. 
Absolutely true about the landfill stuff. I always say that the fact my setup uses far too much electricity is compensated for by all the stuff I have saved from being chucked. My better half will testify to my propensity for saving stuff from going to landfill, as is easily evidenced by a tour of my workshop, home and garage. Although a 'tour' of the garage probably requires some prowess in mountaineering.

CD rot? Sure as hell. I've binned about half a dozen over the last decade that have become unplayable. AFAIK, it only affects certain manufacturing plants at certain periods, but of course you have no idea where 'your' CDs were made. Most writable CDs have details of their expected life, and it's usually quoted at around 100 years, though rewritable 'RW' discs are much shorter and 'average' means just that. Pot luck really. They were supposed to last 'forever' and many may outlast us, but not all. I've said before that the Library of Congress has stated vinyl is potentially the longest lasting medium for archival storage. Ironically, LoC moved a lot of their storage to CD decades ago and are now moving it to other digital media because of the anticipated long-term problems with CDs.

As for 'value', it's just a concept. The monetary value of something depends above all on finding someone who wants it and is willing to pay for it. I have a few things that are apparently sought after by collectors. There are a few valves that I actually have held back for the retirement fund, but most I simply use, because that's what they're for. I have no idea about the vast majority of my LPs. I do know a few are supposed to be worth a fair bit, but I shan't be finding out, as I hope to still be playing them for as long as my hearing lasts.

 

bigrod

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CD rot is real though rare - applies to my Harnoncourt Bach Cantata CDs. I think with CDs and LPs it's supply and demand - rare stuff has value, and the rest is charity shop. The problem is collections. Few people have the time or strength of mind to list items individually on eBay and profits would be tiny after charges. It's a bit like selling valve collections - some are valuable and TV set valves are landfill. There's just too much redundant hardware - mountains of it. Applies to cars, clothes and most other things. Junk is a real issue in a consumer world. And that's not even to speak of the radioactive junk needing disposal. Companies have never been invoiced for the junk they create - nobody cares. 
I Care ...My son in law even brings me “junk” he finds in skips ..LP’s . Speakers ,so I can retrieve the drivers and the occasional Japanese turntable ..You wouldn’t believe what gets thrown away when families are clearing houses after a bereavement.

kindest regards Julian 

 

toms wait

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A friend of mine works at tips and he brings his work home.  Books CD's DVD's players etc etc.

Occasionally he brings us stuff but usually it is not the good stuff unfortunately, I have been hoping for years he would roll round with an LP12, or a Marantz CD7 or something but no luck so far. 

 
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Klassik

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CD rot? Sure as hell. I've binned about half a dozen over the last decade that have become unplayable. AFAIK, it only affects certain manufacturing plants at certain periods, but of course you have no idea where 'your' CDs were made. Most writable CDs have details of their expected life, and it's usually quoted at around 100 years, though rewritable 'RW' discs are much shorter and 'average' means just that.
There are some CDs which are known to have reliability issues.  Probably the most famous and problematic ones are the CDs made in the 1980s and early 1990s by PDO in the UK.  These are known to suffer from the 'bronzing' problem.  Some CDs pressed during around the same period in Italy have bronzing problems as well.  There may be some other CDs with bronzing issues, but I suspect the great majority of them are PDO UK discs.  PDO CDs pressed outside of the UK seem to be fine.

Sticky Nimbus CDs made in the UK, and sometimes in the US, can be a problem as well.  These problematic discs sometimes aren't necessarily unreadable, but they need to be treated with care or else they might develop problems from mishandling.  They certainly should not be washed the way most other CDs can be washed without problem. 

Some very early CDs, which were often made in Japan, have been reported to have problems with the reflective layer developing holes in them.  It seems that these problems were ironed out pretty early on though.  I have some very early CDs made in Japan in 1983-4 and they're perfectly fine.

Given that a large percentage of problematic discs were pressed in the UK, it wouldn't surprise me if CD buyers in the UK will have more problems with CDs than those living elsewhere like here in the US.  That said, we certainly got a fair number of pop/classical CDs which were made by PDO UK like some from the Polygram/Universal labels and from British classical labels such as Hyperion and ASV.

As a whole though, the great majority of CDs seem to have been pressed with sufficient care.  That's pretty impressive when you consider all the companies which have pressed CDs and how there is constant pressure for cost-cutting.  I don't think I have to go out on a limb to say that CDs have been made with greater consistency than LPs.  CDs may pose some issues for archivists wanting to preserve media for hundreds of years, but I don't think the average home album collector has much to worry about unless they're expecting to live to be 150 years old or something like that.  xD

I'm also not so sure about the comment that people don't know where CDs are made.  CDs made since the mid-1990s usually have IFPI codes on them which can be looked up to determine which pressing plant made the CDs.  CDs made since the mid-1990s are usually not problematic so you might say that isn't too helpful, but even older CDs usually have information in the matrix which can be used to determine who made the CD.

For example if you see this...

iu


...you know to check for bronzing.

As for CD-Rs, I have a good number of CD-Rs which were burned 20 or more years ago.  Some of these were burned on respected media like Mitsubishi Azo Verbatim Data Life Plus discs, but a lot were burned on cheap discs made by the likes of CMC Magnetics and Ritek.  I will say that they are brand name discs from CMC and Ritek so they are probably at least A-grade discs from those manufacturers.  Anyway, I've recently scanned those CD-Rs for errors and almost all of them are reporting extremely low C1 correctable errors and no C2 non-correctable errors.  They're basically scanning the way a newly burned CD-R would scan.  Thus, I have no reason to think that those CD-Rs will become troublesome anytime soon. 

Granted, I have stored those CD-Rs well and I think that has helped a lot.  CD-Rs, especially the early cyanine dye CD-Rs, are quite sensitive to UV rays so they need to be stored properly. 

 

Nearly bewildered

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There are some CDs which are known to have reliability issues.  Probably the most famous and problematic ones are the CDs made in the 1980s and early 1990s by PDO in the UK.  These are known to suffer from the 'bronzing' problem.  Some CDs pressed during around the same period in Italy have bronzing problems as well.  There may be some other CDs with bronzing issues, but I suspect the great majority of them are PDO UK discs.  PDO CDs pressed outside of the UK seem to be fine.

Sticky Nimbus CDs made in the UK, and sometimes in the US, can be a problem as well.  These problematic discs sometimes aren't necessarily unreadable, but they need to be treated with care or else they might develop problems from mishandling.  They certainly should not be washed the way most other CDs can be washed without problem. 

Some very early CDs, which were often made in Japan, have been reported to have problems with the reflective layer developing holes in them.  It seems that these problems were ironed out pretty early on though.  I have some very early CDs made in Japan in 1983-4 and they're perfectly fine.

Given that a large percentage of problematic discs were pressed in the UK, it wouldn't surprise me if CD buyers in the UK will have more problems with CDs than those living elsewhere like here in the US.  That said, we certainly got a fair number of pop/classical CDs which were made by PDO UK like some from the Polygram/Universal labels and from British classical labels such as Hyperion and ASV.

As a whole though, the great majority of CDs seem to have been pressed with sufficient care.  That's pretty impressive when you consider all the companies which have pressed CDs and how there is constant pressure for cost-cutting.  I don't think I have to go out on a limb to say that CDs have been made with greater consistency than LPs.  CDs may pose some issues for archivists wanting to preserve media for hundreds of years, but I don't think the average home album collector has much to worry about unless they're expecting to live to be 150 years old or something like that.  xD

I'm also not so sure about the comment that people don't know where CDs are made.  CDs made since the mid-1990s usually have IFPI codes on them which can be looked up to determine which pressing plant made the CDs.  CDs made since the mid-1990s are usually not problematic so you might say that isn't too helpful, but even older CDs usually have information in the matrix which can be used to determine who made the CD.

For example if you see this...



...you know to check for bronzing.

As for CD-Rs, I have a good number of CD-Rs which were burned 20 or more years ago.  Some of these were burned on respected media like Mitsubishi Azo Verbatim Data Life Plus discs, but a lot were burned on cheap discs made by the likes of CMC Magnetics and Ritek.  I will say that they are brand name discs from CMC and Ritek so they are probably at least A-grade discs from those manufacturers.  Anyway, I've recently scanned those CD-Rs for errors and almost all of them are reporting extremely low C1 correctable errors and no C2 non-correctable errors.  They're basically scanning the way a newly burned CD-R would scan.  Thus, I have no reason to think that those CD-Rs will become troublesome anytime soon. 

Granted, I have stored those CD-Rs well and I think that has helped a lot.  CD-Rs, especially the early cyanine dye CD-Rs, are quite sensitive to UV rays so they need to be stored properly. 
Im now going to be looking at all my cd's..to see who made them.. If they're sticky? ( could be marmalade? ) if the reflective film is up the duff? ( could be my eyes?)  i have to keep down a job..practice my Ukulele..think deep thoughts! I dont have time for cd evaluation!  Think ill keep with Qobuz...no chaffing..no stickiness..and no worries 🙃 

 
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Klassik

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Im now going to be looking at all my cd's..to see who made them.. If they're sticky? ( could be marmalade? ) if the reflective film is up the duff? ( could be my eyes?)  i have to keep down a job..practice my Ukulele..think deep thoughts! I dont have time for cd evaluation!  Think ill keep with Qobuz...no chaffing..no stickiness..and no worries 🙃 
Looking up IFPI codes can be quite addicting.  xD   If you really want to become obsessive about CD evaluation, get your hands on a PC CD/DVD drive which is known to produce good scans for C1 and C2 errors (some drives can even scan for jitter as well) and then use free programs like Nero DiscSpeed  or QPXtool to do the scanning.  Klassik has spent quite a few hours looking up what I already knew that my CDs are in excellent condition.  :geek:

If your CDs are sticky, it might not just be a Nimbus problem.  It's possible that you've gotten your hands on some of Bettina's Beethoven, Liszt, Mendelssohn, and Amy Grant CDs.   :D   Of course, I don't think she would sell those so this is probably not a practical problem. It's impossible to make Qobuz sticky in such a fashion.  I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.   xD  

 
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Don Ruperto

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I think we've covered some of this ground before.  I've come across Nimbus stickies, they are a bit odd!  

I would estimate I have about 3000 CDs and I haven't even seen one example of anything that looks like CD rot.  Maybe it's a long time since I played some of them.  I'm not a big time seller of CDs, I probably sell about 200 a year maybe - but I've been selling them for about 20 years.  Again, I've never seen any "rot" and I'm totally meticulous about inspecting CDs that I want to sell.  

I bought a Pearl Bailey compilation on the Living Era label recently - part of a job lot of about 60 jazz CDs.  This CD had a number small holes in the silver layer  - very peculiar, never seen that before.  Sure enough it wouldn't play through.  

I seem to remember reading somewhere that it has something to do with climate?  Heat and humidity. 

 
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Klassik

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I bought a Pearl Bailey compilation on the Living Era label recently - part of a job lot of about 60 jazz CDs.  This CD had a number small holes in the silver layer  - very peculiar, never seen that before.  Sure enough it wouldn't play through.  

I seem to remember reading somewhere that it has something to do with climate?  Heat and humidity. 
A quick search shows that Living Era is/was a sublabel of ASV, a British label who was known to have CDs made by PDO UK.  Thus, I wouldn't be surprised if your Pearl Bailey disc was pressed by PDO UK.  :S

As with most media, it's best to not store CDs in a hot, humid climate.  Having said that, I think a lot of these discs which end up bronzing or having the holes in the reflective layer will go bad regardless of how they are stored due to inherit manufacturing defects with the CDs.  I suspect that most of those defective discs made in the first decade of the CD format will have already have gone bad if they have the defective design since they're already 25+ years old at this point.

Nonetheless, if you have any PDO UK discs from the 1980s/early 1990s which are still working okay, it might be best to do quality scans on them to check their condition and/or rip them just to be on the safe side.  Since we're talking about early CDs here, if you do rip them, you may want to check for CD pre-emphasis and make sure it is accounted for during the ripping process.

 

toms wait

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I thinkI have excised this particular nightmare now and gone to Manchester and bought six vinyl albums.

Also found a storage unit in the garage that fits in my music room that can hold about 120 lps and is currently empty!!!!!

So to all you streaming fans sorry, but it looks like it was just a bad dream after all, got some space to fill now.

Must check out the radio 2 80's list, I could use some Kylie 9_9

 

Lurch

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I could make good use of her aswell 😲😜

 
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toms wait

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Men are so depressingly predictable because that's exactly what I was thinking when I wrote that :doh: :bouncey:

 

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