Modification madness ?

[ANADROL-50]

Denon DCD-1600NE CD Player - £1099
https://www.hifix.co.uk/denon-dcd1600ne-cd-player
Modification cost - £1477
https://www.russandrews.com/denon-1600ne-dcd-sacd-player-upgrade/
Is this cost madness ?

​

 

[hearhere]

In a word - YES

If you want a better player, buy a better player rather than spend money on trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

 

[MVJ]

Denon DCD-1600NE CD Player - £1099
[URL]https://www.hifix.co.uk/denon-dcd1600ne-cd-player[/URL]

Modification cost - £1477
[URL]https://www.russandrews.com/denon-1600ne-dcd-sacd-player-upgrade/[/URL]

Is this cost madness ?

​

Bonkers🤯 but you can trust Mr Andrews to come up with another angle to suck dosh out of us vunerable hifi enthusiasts piggy banks eh!

 

[Jules_S]

I've pondered this question myself, in my own context. I'm not unhappy with the performance of my phono stage, but I've wondered a few times if there's untapped potential to be had. How much better it could be with the investment of, say £200, or £300, or £500 in modifications? At what point does the price / performance thing make no sense any more, and mean it's better to just buy a higher-performing phono?

I suppose for me it depends on whether £existing kit + £mod punches above its price point. If my original £600 (from memory) plus £500 mods sounds better to me than, say, a £1500 phono stage then it's worth the investment. If it's close... no harm done but no real benefit. If it's not as good, I've wasted my money.

The risk of course is the not knowing. I can audition the £1500 phono stage with no risk, but I can't audition my modded unit without actually paying for it. It's one reason I chose the amp I did after my recent extended home audition. The competitor to it showed moments of brilliance but was inconsistent by comparison. A well-known and highly-regarded modifier of the "competitor" could very well have transformed the capability to something that surpassed my chosen amp (and beyond any other equivalent at the same price), but the inability to hear what that modded amp would sound like, plus the investment costs meant the risk was too much for me to take - I couldn't be certain I would have definitely preferred it.

 

[lazycat]

Blimey.

You can get the anniversary player,

DCD-A110​

for £2500.

 

[MVJ]

I'm all for plug & play type "upgrades" but when you start pulling stuff out & putting new in it would be a nightmare even for an expert if they cocked up a mod to a nice as it stands piece of kit.

One of the best upgrades I have done was fitting a Copper Cap Rectifier to my EE Minimax Phono stage the difference was amazing and the only risk was it coming from the USA & getting stung for import duty.

Personally if I wanted better sound from a component I would replace it rather than risk having some one upgrade the old one.

 

[hearhere]

I'm all for plug & play type "upgrades" but when you start pulling stuff out & putting new in it would be a nightmare even for an expert if they cocked up a mod to a nice as it stands piece of kit.

One of the best upgrades I have done was fitting a Copper Cap Rectifier to my EE Minimax Phono stage the difference was amazing and the only risk was it coming from the USA & getting stung for import duty.

Personally if I wanted better sound from a component I would replace it rather than risk having some one upgrade the old one.

Don't you (and others) think that if a minor mod made a significant improvement, wouldn't the manufacturer have made that mod themselves?

Pulling out one component, chucking it away, then buying and installing a new one is bonkers. Surely better to buy a better all-round product in the first place - with no waste basket full of junked parts! We are generally not cleverer than the professional designers working for the manufacturer.

I've made mods to my speakers, but not in any feeble attempt to improve on the sound, but to improve their looks - with the approval of the manufacturer - and at very low percentage cost

 

[rabski]

On the one hand, anything can be improved. Manufacturers certainly could improve the performance of anything, but there are sound (commercial) reasons they don't. Continuity of supply, ease of build, maintaining differences throughout the range, etc. And often, simply cost. Adding a £100 pair of sockets will make an improvement, but the improvement will be extremely small. To a manufacturer, £100 in component cost means at least double that in the eventual retail price and the majority of customers won't want to pay the difference. Things are carefully priced at their market sector.

On the other hand... improvements rarely match the cost of them and frequently damage the resale value. Unless the people doing the modifications really understand the circuit and all aspects of it, modifications can make changes that are not necessarily for the better.

In general, modifications make sense if you can do them yourself, fully understand what will (and won't) make an improvement (and where it will and won't), have suitable test equipment and are willing to accept a hit on the resale value.

Otherwise, just put the money towards something better in the first place.

 

[Juancho]

I'm all for plug & play type "upgrades" but when you start pulling stuff out & putting new in it would be a nightmare even for an expert if they cocked up a mod to a nice as it stands piece of kit.

One of the best upgrades I have done was fitting a Copper Cap Rectifier to my EE Minimax Phono stage the difference was amazing

If you replaced a valve rectifier with the copper cap solid state one, you will have raised the ht of your phono stage due to its lower voltage drop as well as got rid of the valve's soft start function......the over-voltage may then go beyond the ratings of some components eg capacitors along with stressing the valves more

 

[MVJ]

I have no doubt you know what your talking about David but it was about 10 years ago & it's still sounding fantastic & tbh I'll deal with whatever happens in the future and fix any issues as it's a keeper👍

 

[Juancho]

I have no doubt you know what your talking about David but it was about 10 years ago & it's still sounding fantastic & tbh I'll deal with whatever happens in the future and fix any issues as it's a keeper👍

Then nothing will have been stretched too far and the components clearly have sufficient tolerance. The manufacturer no doubt used valve rectification as a marketing tool rather than for SQ

 

[MVJ]

Then nothing will have been stretched too far and the components clearly have sufficient tolerance. The manufacturer no doubt used valve rectification as a marketing tool rather than for SQ

I don't have the knowledge to think that deep mate as long as it turns on sounds great & turns off I'm happy😁

 

[pmcuk]

Don't you (and others) think that if a minor mod made a significant improvement, wouldn't the manufacturer have made that mod themselves? Pulling out one component, chucking it away, then buying and installing a new one is bonkers. Surely better to buy a better all-round product in the first place

As Richard stated, this just isn't true. Manufacturers don't fit optimum parts for several reasons - cost, availability, what's in stock and what's unavailable or on a waiting list, and even because there actually is a better design option. That's why you get Mk2 versions of products - designers evolve.

As has been mentioned already, capacitors are one example of an upgrade which can make a very audible difference. Both coupling caps and in valve circuits, power supply caps and cathode bypass caps. Also in valve amps better transformers and better tubes, as all the tube rollers know. In fact with valve amps there's plenty of possible upgrades, probably more than solid state gear. Op-amps can be rolled like tubes, though, if they are removable.

So yes, don't ignore upgrades but upgrade only the parts in the circuit that make a real difference. As said, connectors are probably a waste of money. Easy to swap but there are much bigger fish to fry here.

 

[hearhere]

As Richard stated, this just isn't true. Manufacturers don't fit optimum parts for several reasons - cost, availability, what's in stock and what's unavailable or on a waiting list, and even because there actually is a better design option. That's why you get Mk2 versions of products - designers evolve.

Within the price bracket the manufacturer is working in, he will use the very best components to achieve his objective - to produce a product that will be well reviewed and sound and look better than its rivals within that price bracket. If one small change makes a real difference he will make that change, but otherwise his cocktail of components is carefully matched.

If owners decide to meddle and change individual parts, what about the ones he doesn't change? They are now letting the unit down. And what about the bin full of discarded parts? He has paid for them and he's paid for their replacements. Surely more sensible to buy the better product in the first place - with no wasted parts and everything carefully chosen to work at their very best within the new (higher of course) price range. No invalid warranty and no sacrifice of used value when he does realise there's a better product out there that needs no mods! Just my take on things!

 

[rabski]

Within the price bracket the manufacturer is working in, he will use the very best components to achieve his objective - to produce a product that will be well reviewed and sound and look better than its rivals within that price bracket. If one small change makes a real difference he will make that change, but otherwise his cocktail of components is carefully matched.

If owners decide to meddle and change individual parts, what about the ones he doesn't change? They are now letting the unit down. And what about the bin full of discarded parts? He has paid for them and he's paid for their replacements. Surely more sensible to buy the better product in the first place - with no wasted parts and everything carefully chosen to work at their very best within the new (higher of course) price range. No invalid warranty and no sacrifice of used value when he does realise there's a better product out there that needs no mods! Just my take on things!

The first part I only query slightly, the rest I completely agree with.

The issue with the first part is that whilst a designer may well choose and specify the ideal component mix for a particular circuit, the manufacturing and marketing process may end up with a different result. Component cost can sometimes be a major problem, but availability (and continuity) may be an even bigger hurdle.

This all very much depends on the size of the manufacturer and the product volume. If you're going to produce just a hundred of something, you can afford to take paths in design and component spec that may be ruled out for large-volume production. Especially in the current world, component availability is a serious issue in many cases anyway. It is no good specifying the absolutely perfect component if there are only a few available and you need to wait months for more. In that case, you spec something that's almost as good. The same applies to cost, but if you're a designer working for a major manufacturer, you'll be battling your own finance and marketing departments every inch of the way and there absolutely will be compromises.

 

[Lawrence001]

The first part I only query slightly, the rest I completely agree with.

The issue with the first part is that whilst a designer may well choose and specify the ideal component mix for a particular circuit, the manufacturing and marketing process may end up with a different result. Component cost can sometimes be a major problem, but availability (and continuity) may be an even bigger hurdle.

This all very much depends on the size of the manufacturer and the product volume. If you're going to produce just a hundred of something, you can afford to take paths in design and component spec that may be ruled out for large-volume production. Especially in the current world, component availability is a serious issue in many cases anyway. It is no good specifying the absolutely perfect component if there are only a few available and you need to wait months for more. In that case, you spec something that's almost as good. The same applies to cost, but if you're a designer working for a major manufacturer, you'll be battling your own finance and marketing departments every inch of the way and there absolutely will be compromises.

Just the point I was going to make, using the Musical Fidelity A1 as an example. They were class a and got hot, but fitted with 85deg capacitors which would be driven at or over their spec reducing shelf life considerably. The classic DIY upgrade is to replace them with 105deg caps which solved the problem. It's a nice amp that deserves to be kept going. (I much preferred the A100 but that's another story.)

The story goes Tim deP would have specced them properly but the bean counters downgraded them to save money. I'm not sure how true the story is but if so it's a good example of where business overrules the designer, it's not about SQ but reliability, but the point remains valid.

 

[pmcuk]

On the subject of availability it's ironic that obsolete valves from nearly 100 years ago can still be found fairly easily. But try and find a Sony SIT device or even a humble 2SK170. And don't even think of A spec ones or well matched N and P pairs When you look at the Pass Labs amps, for instance, most of the devices are obsolete or hard to find now. The nice Semisouth devices are gone together with even the devices that used to be fairly common. And it's only likely to get worse. Whole car production lines are at a standstill because electronic parts are unavailable to send them out.

 

[lazycat]

Don't you (and others) think that if a minor mod made a significant improvement, wouldn't the manufacturer have made that mod themselves?

I modded my sotm because that is exactly what sotm did to move to the 'Neo' version of my streamer. I never mess with 'new' kit usually but I did in this instance, and an improvement was wrought - for the price a larger capacitor.

And I have to say if I hadn't recapped my speakers I probably wouldn't still have them - tho a couple were seriously out of spec. The improvement was striking.

Would I spend £1.5k on modding a new disc player? No, I'd buy a better one.

IMO modding doesnt have to be about serious circuit changes like the RA. I'm not sure whether or not replacing speaker caps have affected the value, but I'm very happy with them and have no thoughts of selling, the same goes for my streamer.

I'm not much of a box swapper - I've reached a point where good enough is exactly that. And that has been reached by some targeted fettling.

Oh, I also have a bastards bastard of a turntable. That sounds pretty good, tho' is probably worth much less than unmolested - but see 'good enough'.
If I'd implemented my system improvements by buying new kit every time it would have cost money I didn't have and would've been a true faff.

More faff than getting the soldering iron hot. 😁

Thanks to my, mostly modest, mods I have a much improved system and one I'm very happy with.
Maybe I should get a RA catalogue......

 

[DomT]

Denon DCD-1600NE CD Player - £1099
[URL]https://www.hifix.co.uk/denon-dcd1600ne-cd-player[/URL]

Modification cost - £1477
[URL]https://www.russandrews.com/denon-1600ne-dcd-sacd-player-upgrade/[/URL]

Is this cost madness ?

​

Link is incorrect.

 

[DomT]

I've pondered this question myself, in my own context. I'm not unhappy with the performance of my phono stage, but I've wondered a few times if there's untapped potential to be had. How much better it could be with the investment of, say £200, or £300, or £500 in modifications? At what point does the price / performance thing make no sense any more, and mean it's better to just buy a higher-performing phono?

I suppose for me it depends on whether £existing kit + £mod punches above its price point. If my original £600 (from memory) plus £500 mods sounds better to me than, say, a £1500 phono stage then it's worth the investment. If it's close... no harm done but no real benefit. If it's not as good, I've wasted my money.

The risk of course is the not knowing. I can audition the £1500 phono stage with no risk, but I can't audition my modded unit without actually paying for it. It's one reason I chose the amp I did after my recent extended home audition. The competitor to it showed moments of brilliance but was inconsistent by comparison. A well-known and highly-regarded modifier of the "competitor" could very well have transformed the capability to something that surpassed my chosen amp (and beyond any other equivalent at the same price), but the inability to hear what that modded amp would sound like, plus the investment costs meant the risk was too much for me to take - I couldn't be certain I would have definitely preferred it.

I had the same conundrum. But I trusted Deco Audio who distribute Audion to upgrade my Audion phono stage and it was worth every penny. But some items are easier to upgrade than others. For anything digital I would prefer to buy a different player.