"MoFi-gate", real problem or a storm in a teacup?

[bigfool1956]

It has recently been revealed that MoFi releases since 2015 have all been cut from a DSD copy of the master tapes and not, as one might have thought, via an all analogue path. This has caused quite a few people to get pretty upset as they feel they have been duped into spending extra for something different to what they were expecting. Now this doesn't seem to be a debate centred on the SQ of the records themselves, but the ethics and potential misrepresentation.

So what do people think here? Should we get our knickers in a twist about this or is the end result all that matters?

 

[lazycat]

Thanks to your question I disappeared down some kind of you-tube hell-hole.

Thank you very much. But..

if I'd spent a small fortune on an Original Master from Mo-fi, without being told it was from a DXD file, I'd be pretty miffed regardless of the sound quality.

 

[chrisph]

I suspect that MoFi lawyers will be quite busy dealing with their US customers trying to sue them.

 

[HIGHWAY61]

From what I can see so far, it could be pre 2015 releases also and Mo-Fi are not denying that yet. The important question is would customers have paid £100+ per release if they knew there was a "digital step" in "One Step" ? The question can only be addressed by the "Analogue Sound Is King" listeners who have been listening to partly digital records all these years in ignorance.

 

[rabski]

There seem a number of aspects to this story, which apparently relates to the 'one step' vinyl and some or all of the 'original master' series.

First, the reasoning is that studios do not want to let go of the original master tapes, because continual playback and use will, of course, degrade them. The process is therefore that MoFi use a DSD recording, made on a properly setup machine at the relevant studio. This DSD is then returned to analogue at MoFi to cut the master for pressing.

Second, no changes are made in the digital version. AFAIK, this would anyway be difficult if not impossible, as processing in DSD is not the same as in other digital formats.

Third, nobody seems to be denying that the quality is superb. I have a number of 'one step' copies here, and quite a few of the 'original master' series and all of them are superb.

Fourth, and this is where the issue comes in. None of the marketing or anything from MoFi to date has suggested any digital step is involved on their side. The terms 'original master' and 'one step' imply very much the opposite. The graphics on the MoFi website suggest the original master recording is used to cut the first lacquer, which is not really the case. The website text for them states 'mastered from the original analogue master tapes', which is still true, but rather conceals part of the process.

Would it stop me from buying any in future? Probably not, as far as the 'original master' series is concerned. They aren't cheap by any standard, but IMHO the quality of the pressings alone makes them worth the cost. However, I'm not so sure now about the 'one step'. The ones I have are very good indeed, but the cost has always been hard to justify, and now it's even harder.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

where do you get theses recordings from is there a website ?

 

[Nopiano]

I’ve never bought these, but have read lots about them. It’s clear that consumers are meant to believe it’s truly an original master source rather than even the finest digital copy.

The more interesting outcome as an observer is that all the analogue faithful now realise they like digital too!

 

[MVJ]

There seem a number of aspects to this story, which apparently relates to the 'one step' vinyl and some or all of the 'original master' series.

First, the reasoning is that studios do not want to let go of the original master tapes, because continual playback and use will, of course, degrade them. The process is therefore that MoFi use a DSD recording, made on a properly setup machine at the relevant studio. This DSD is then returned to analogue at MoFi to cut the master for pressing.

Second, no changes are made in the digital version. AFAIK, this would anyway be difficult if not impossible, as processing in DSD is not the same as in other digital formats.

Third, nobody seems to be denying that the quality is superb. I have a number of 'one step' copies here, and quite a few of the 'original master' series and all of them are superb.

Fourth, and this is where the issue comes in. None of the marketing or anything from MoFi to date has suggested any digital step is involved on their side. The terms 'original master' and 'one step' imply very much the opposite. The graphics on the MoFi website suggest the original master recording is used to cut the first lacquer, which is not really the case. The website text for them states 'mastered from the original analogue master tapes', which is still true, but rather conceals part of the process.

Would it stop me from buying any in future? Probably not, as far as the 'original master' series is concerned. They aren't cheap by any standard, but IMHO the quality of the pressings alone makes them worth the cost. However, I'm not so sure now about the 'one step'. The ones I have are very good indeed, but the cost has always been hard to justify, and now it's even harder.

A brilliant post Richard & just about puts the discussion to bed really....


I've never bought any of their vinyl so can't comment on sound quality but price wise I can't spend that much on an LP which with my numb fingers could be ruined in a moment and become wall decoration

 

[orbscure]

where do you get theses recordings from is there a website ?

https://mofi.com
...but there are also dealers worldwide...

 

[Iceman 16]

 

[Tony_J]

Is this all just HiFi master-debating...?

I'll get my coat...

 

[JANDL100]

Oh dear.
I've a feeling that Mo-Fi won't survive this. As chrisph suggests, a number of expensive US lawsuits must surely be in prospect. And sales of the current catalogue must be crashing.

Which is a shame, as they do seem to provide excellent product. Just not a fully open and honest marketing strategy. But then the Analogue Crazies probably wouldn't have coughed up big £££ if they had.

I can't seem to suppress a bit of a chuckle about it though, digital denizen that I am.

 

[karlsushi]

Issues of legality aside, I don't see this as significantly different from the ubiquitous 'secret sauce' and 'snakeoil' claims going on elsewhere in the audio world.

In the end, most (sensible) people will purchase using their ears. That's always been where perceived vfm in audio sits for me at least.

(like others though, I can't help enjoying the way this is playing out in terms of the analogue vs digital debate - notwithstanding it must be a pretty small minority who actually believe one is 'better' than the other nowadays?)

 

[peter the butcher]

I got my usual "Pauls Post" (PS Audio) letter in my inbox this morning, and he weighed in a bit, but as he is a strong proponent of DSD/DXD and its merits...

 

[Speedracer]

As Richard say's there are a number of angles to this. I don't think there is a question to answer in terms of sound quality, I have a few "super pressings" & I am more than happy with them, & of course we have all had to navigate our way through various snake oil products claiming they can work wonders for music replay, so I guess we shouldn't be too surprised, but I am not sure I would have paid the prices I have had I known the full picture.
It has always been analogue for me right from the start, mainly as back when I was a kid records were the only medium I knew other than the radio, & when CD came along I was already too invested to jump ship, not that I wanted to anyway, I just had no desire for the medium, although I am dipping my toes in it now. I was only saying the other day to some fellow Wammers that although I found the Mo-Fi & the like records expensive I would still buy them because if you build a system to be the best you can afford you want to play the best sounding records on them, but I expect this news to bring about some changes in attitude, & maybe even more realistic pricing.

 

[Non-Smoking Man]

Its a legal matter - and the question is whether the manufacturer has made fraudulent claims about the product (in order thereby to profit).

It will rest in the wording (and the law). The quality of the product is irrelevant.

I've never bought a MOFI record, but if I had, my knickers would be properly twisted.

Jack NSM

This is a resume of the interview shown above by Iceman 16..

Interviewer - 'is DSD involved?' And, generally talk me through the process and what's involved..

Answer - we go to great lengths to authenticate the master tapes and we optimise our work under the prevailing conditions e'g., there is an effort to achieve the most 'efficient' copy or transfer;
The Ethos has remained the same, but the technology has changed. We use DSD because 'it can achieve better (more accurate) results; it gives an opportunity for incremental adjustments involving several members of the team and allows more time for the processes.
I would rather the time to make the best record using a digital copy of the master tape than a rushed copy from an original mastertape (my rehash of a direct quote).

Whereas in the past mastertapes were freely available when they werent worth much, now studios are less free with access, so a copy is necessary. We travel to a studio and set up a Studer machine to get the transfer if necessary.

Interviewer - will there be more transparency in the future regarding the use of digital transfers given there has been an issue regarding the actual process?

Answer - Yes, there will be an 'increase in transparency'. The labeling will change.

There followed a more informal discussion of the history of the company, the construction of a building for expansion, their best titles (Miles Davis, esp. the Colombia material), Alison Kraus, Dylan, and in the beginning 'Hot, Buttered Soul'.

 

[rabski]

I've never bought a MOFI record, but if I had, my knickers would be properly twisted.

By comparison, I've got more than a few MoFi pressings, and my undergarments are not in the least disturbed.

 

[StingRay]

I can see why some people are upset. Some hate digital and buying MoFi One step, thought they were getting all analogue. I agree the marketting is misleading and they will probably get sued. If I had paid £150-£200 l would not be too happy. I would never buy them they are too expensive, even in the US where prices are somewhat lower.

 

[Iceman 16]

I have a few MoFi records and I’ll would probably still be buying from them. I always buy something that sounds great and pleases my ears regardless if it’s digital or analogue. Imo it’s about how good it was recorded or mastered. I heard some sh..t on both formats though.

 

[Brown Bottle]

IMO they have certainly misrepresented their product, the sound quality might be great but I wouldn't touch them knowing the provinence. I woudn't pay the asking price either.

Cheers BB