More Digital Jiggery Pokery

[bencat]

Well @m7rso Graham came round today to have a listen . Graham has heard my system a number of times with various amplifier changes (no I did not destroy them all) and he is familiar with my system and has liked the improvements I had made with using the NVA S300 amp and the Mutec on its own .

When Graham arrived I was listening to Craig Charles on Six Music and there was music playing . graham sat down and said this sound really good and was then surprised when it was radio . This is one of the better things about the improvement with the LB Clock is that even poor quality streams sound better . We then listened through a series of tracks that Graham knows well and has heard before on my system . In all cases he heard major differences on John Martyn Excuse me Mister from the Church with one Bell Graham said that his voice sounded so different more real than it had ever had before . So I am not going mad or over egging this one . The difference using the external clock (and that may well be any better clock not just this one) is a big uplift is sound quality .

Paul of NVA is going to call round next Sunday (not the one coming) and he has never heard my system before so it will be good to get his take on it as he has just bought ESL 57 speakers and has heard lots of different speakers . Would hope that me using an NVA amp might well help but will report back after he has had a chance to listen .

I am still very much convinced that if you have a system that has the possibility of using an external clock then it is worth doing it . An OXCO clock diy is likely to offer a very decent uplift for very little money , or if like me you do not have the skills for that the LB Clock is a nice ready built option that works well for not in the grand scheme of things too much money .

 

[bencat]

Ahh and you all thought it was safe and Andrew would at last shut up about this well sadly another thing has emerged which is different and not sure why .

I have a dCS Purcell / Delius pair with the Purcell upsampling the stream and feeding that to the Delius . Now quite a while ago I was told to try and make sure that any upsampling was a multiple of the input so for 44.1 Hz use 88.2,176.6 and for 48 / 96 Hz use 96 , 192 . using two aes streams from Purcell to Delius the highest possible is 24 / 192 and I have used this all the time for everything . I did try varying the rates and could never identify any differences . I now have the Delius connected to the clock output on the Purcell and this means the Purcell automatically switches the Delius when inpuy frequencies change . Since the LB Clock has been fitted I have noticed when this change happens that the sound quality changes and is not as good as I know it can be . So now if the frequency changes then I now change the output to match the multiples any 44.1 is now made 176.6 and any 48/96 is made 24/192 (the word length for both is kept at 24) .

This makes a difference now and makes sense of what dCS technical advised me . Before the use of the clock I could not detect any difference with the clock it is obvious when it is wrong and you have to switch it . Only thing now is that I will need to go through the six different filters again to see if the use of the clock has made there actions the same as it was before ( I had decided on 6 after a long listening) . Yet more things to change and play with .

 

[bencat]

In case anyone has been following this and still interested then I have spotted an alternative unit that could be bought and tried if you have any unit in your dgital chain that has an external / word clock input . I am sure this will not be the last word in best quality but if others are saying £13 modules make a big difference this one is a good option for those who do not have the skills to create one themsleves . Also this sates it is a 75 Ohm output which matches the current inputs of most Music based items and side steps the impedance mismatch with the 50 Ohm clock being talked about elsewhere .

https://campaign.aliexpress.com/wow...329&OLP=1085100208_f_group2&o_s_id=1085100208

 

[bencat]

Now I am very much in the club of saying that current measurements I have seen do not really tell us the full story of what we hear . Please note that I said current . With regard to digital recently I have become aware that for me at least the clock and timing are very important and improvements in this area for me at least show real improvements in sound quality . Now I have put a link to another forum to show some measurements and I am well aware that I have been scathing of those doing this and in particular to the ASR site . However this is a little different , the technical knowledge is way over my head but I do grasp certain bits of it . The improvement in the Square Wave shape and the digital and the eye pattern are very easy to see and it has a certain logic to it that better and more accurate results in this area should produce better and much cleaner results . The only way to find out if this is the case would be to get my Mutec upgraded to get similar measurements which I am very much looking at and considering when I have saved up the pennies . Of course this does not apply to analogue measurements and I do not know if it could be applied in a similar way I suspect not . But as I am all digital this is yet another rabbit hole I can feel myself falling in to .

https://audioaddictsforum.com/thread/2817/tick-tock?page=9

 

[Cable Monkey]

It's a shame people can't see the waveform they often glibly say are just 0's and 1's. The question "When is it 0 and when does it become 1?" often simply draws a confused look because it proves many digital warriors simply don't understand the principles on which they argue so vehemently. The conventional wisdom was a DAC locked onto the clock of the gear feeding it. But when you look at the waveform you see horribly degraded examples of a wave with a much closer resemblance to saw tooth or shark fin than square wave!

 

[JustinTime]

The only way to find out if this is the case would be to get my Mutec upgraded to get similar measurements which I am very much looking at and considering when I have saved up the pennies .

Have you considered and ruled out making a clock like this, Andrew?
Thread 'Master clock build thread'
https://www.hifiwigwam.com/threads/master-clock-build-thread.118051/
Not for the faint-hearted I’m sure, and I have no idea about component costs, but wouldn’t a high accuracy/stability “master” clock be the best way to upgrade the Mutec? Maybe this is what you meant by upgrade.

 

[bencat]

Thanks for the suggestion @JustinTime but I already have a Leo Bodnar GPS external clock which sort of started this journey of being obsessed with timing and clocks . Sadly I do not have the skills to construct my own clock but the LB has proved an excellent off the shelf solution . The upgrade I am looking at is in fact component replacement as detailed in the linked thread . I have already replaced the SMPS internal power supply on the Mutec with an off board LPSU (SBooster) so this last push is just for the internal upgrade .

 

[JustinTime]

Thanks for the suggestion @JustinTime but I already have a Leo Bodnar GPS external clock which sort of started this journey of being obsessed with timing and clocks . Sadly I do not have the skills to construct my own clock but the LB has proved an excellent off the shelf solution . The upgrade I am looking at is in fact component replacement as detailed in the linked thread . I have already replaced the SMPS internal power supply on the Mutec with an off board LPSU (SBooster) so this last push is just for the internal upgrade .

Gotcha

 

[bencat]

Now a real upset for all those that say it is just wires . The 50 Ohm bnc from the Leo Bodnar clock to my Mutec is only carrying 10 mHz clock signal no musical information and most certainly just digital data . So any correctly made and specified 50 Ohm cable should be right and the same . I bought a 50 Ohm bnc from gear store and ordered a hand built 50 Ohm bnc from Pickerings Ltd who specialise in industrial systems . When that arrived I just changed it straight in to the system and left it there . Till today on another site I read a thread showing measurements of two bnc cables . They showed real differences in the Square Wave and the digital eye . One looked better than the other cleaner SW shape and wider digital eye . As was stated how this transfers to any system is not easy to say . But I switched the bnc from my clock back to the cheap Gear Pro cable and I was really shocked this was much more musical than the hand made one no real contest better detail , better bass more real sound and wider sound stage . So the cheap one stays . If I can will get these two cables tested and see if the one I prefer measures better or if in fact I prefer the sound of a cable that shows worse performance . Will be back when this has happened .

 

[Cable Monkey]

It would just switch to the alternative argument and question wether changes could be audible.

 

[bencat]

It would just switch to the alternative argument and question wether changes could be audible.

Ah but that can only be truthfully answered by the person listening and two people listening to the same thing may have very different answers . Both would be right . I am just stating what I heard and why I decided to change . This worked for me but may not make any difference to someone else or in another system . I would however like to know either way did I choose the better measured or worse measured cable ? Whichever is it opens up different possibilities without any so called scientific certainties . Sadly for science humans are not precision instruments and often choose against the measured scale because what we are listening to his emotional not science .

 

[bencat]

A return to first findings these last few days . I have recently found that there are issues with using large USB HD with LMS on a Rasberry Pi . So as I was rapidly getting the full stage on my 2 TB SSD I needed to change things .

@Lawrence001 had a LIV Zen server up for sale which used LMS via Vortexbox . But it was also really possible to put a very large HD inside which would mean me never having to worry about space again . So bought the Zen added an 8 TB HD and loaded 2.4 Vortexbox 8.4 LMS and then copied across all my music . That was very easy to write but not as easy to do but we are there .

The Zen needs a 12v 5 Amp power supply and the only 12 V LPSU I had (MCRU) was shutting down all the time when it was used. Nothing for it but had to use an old laptop SMPS to get things working . This was done and things were all running and doing what I wanted . In truth the sound quality was if anything better than the Pi set up (I was able to run both side by side and switch between them) but it was marginal .

I then sent the MCRU away to have it looked at and found that it was poor at dealing with thermal build up as the heat sinking was inadequate . Some fixes and alterations have now fixed this and it will now run the Zen without any switch off but both boxes are running a little hot nothing serious but noticable .

However the surprise (it should not have been but there you go) was when I got the Zen booted up and started to play music . The sound had changed and there was a quietness and lack of hash that I remember being surprised about when years ago I changed the router power supply to LPSU the last thing in the chain to be still using SMPS at that time . It would seem even a single SMPS in the chain does make a difference and the use of LPSU throughout has a cumulative effect which is important . I now have full LPSU for all elements and a very silly number of boxes to make this possible . Lots on here will be looking dubious and doubting all of this and I know it is a personal thing for me that with my hearing I seem to be very sensitive to any noise or background edge in the system . I may still have to find a 12 v 5 Amp LPSU for the Zen if the uprated MCRU is not man enough for the job but even as it is the sound is really improved and easier to listen to .

 

[Lawrence001]

I'd be surprised if the MCRU could handle the Zen there are some cheap options like the one I used and have posted about before on my Zen upgrades.

 

[bencat]

Been on since this morning and not missed a beat . Neither the newly fitted heat sink on the small box not the larger case are anything more than warm same as the cases in others LPSU units I have in use . Will of course keep a close watch over the next few days and see how things go .

 

[slavedata]

Interesting article here about the impact of external clocks on digital professional studio equipment.
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/does-your-studio-need-digital-master-clock

 

[tuga]

Interesting article here about the impact of external clocks on digital professional studio equipment.
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/does-your-studio-need-digital-master-clock

I have posted that link many times (whenever clocks are discussed).

The ideal place for a clock is next to the D/A chip, but there may be a few very rare instances where an external clock can improve performance, mostly when S/PDIF and old DACs are involved.
Most modern DACs will not benefit from an external clock, but as mentioned earlier by @Cable Monkey it is possible that an internal clock upgrade could provide an improvement. But since most of us are electronics-illiterate we are stuck with external 'remedies' (which often don't work or make matters worse).

 

[bencat]

Just a later update I have now had my Mutec upgraded by Coherent Systems this consists of them changing 26 parts and adding a few more full details are as can be expected not made common knowledge as Tony had worked long and hard to develop the upgrades. There is reduction of RFI and better linearity among other things and seeing the before and after measurements is very impressive . So as the Mutec has to be sent away to be worked on there is no chance for side by side listening . However the improvements are in line with adding the LB Clock just more of the feeling the sound is more real . I would again say using BBC 6 music is a very good illustration when someone is talking the sound makes it sound much more like the person is just there . Their voices have the various qualities we notice when talking to someone face to face ,some people have chesty voices ,or nasal voices . All of this very obvious and real when two people are talking the real differences between them is as it would be if you were there listening . Music takes this improvement and find with it . BBC 6 is now much more listenable and I almost do not notice the lower quality of the stream . I can much easier now just get lost in what is being played and as happened last weekend I hear a track by an artist I have not come across before and off I go scurrying to buy up back catalogue of used CD,s . I have to admit that I have heard and improved the overall sound I get more in the last two years than I have ever done before . I am a little sad that I have missed out on this but also pleased I finally found what to me at least makes a difference . There is still much more I could improve if I had the money but I am in a happy place right now and playing my main system much more than my second which was not the case . I recently sent a Wammer a very cheap network switch that I was not using . I was very pleased that not only something that was doing nothing is now being used , but also that the Wammer really heard an improvement in sound quality . I know some of the things I am doing mystify and annoy others as they say it can not make a difference , well for me it does and I am finding a growing number that are hearing the same thing . Party on Dude .

 

[bencat]

Okay I know for most on here this will be of limited interest but I like to let flow any information . I use a Leo Bodnar external clock for digital play back . It works really well and compared to the others out there it has a reasonable to me price (£170 delivered) . Now within the settings of the clock there is an option to once return of the micro processor which reduces noise . However this was not too useful as the clock need to be turned off again to reset . LB were working on an updated firmware that would allow the easy setting of this and keeping it set . I sent an e-mail to LB asking if this had been released or would be available soon . I got the reply that this had been a little forgotten about as they were in the middle of designing and building a new more precise clock which is to be released soon . However Simon did say he would add it to the next week's to do list . So hopefully we will see the new firmware soon and a new design and improved clock . The only thing I am hoping is that the new precision clock is priced closer to the original rather than the rival HiFi clocks that are out there (Mutec £1700) being an example and not the most expensive .

 

[bencat]

Right now the next step in silly changes that should make no difference but does . In my set up I have an Optical Converter wired by Ethernet then using sfp to output to my D-Link unmanaged switch . On another forum there was chatter that the sfp and optical cable used makes a difference . If I think about this I find it hard to make any sense of this light is light and over the 2mtr cable distance it either works or not . Well the advice was to use a Cisco AOC cable which has fixed Cisco sfp plugs at each end . Retail price for these directly from Cisco or Network dealers are far more than I would be prepared to pay (£190+) as I find it hard to justify that cost . Luckily I was given a link to an eBay seller who had what were said to be used cables for £18 delivered . That is more my sort of spend just to have a try . Arrived this morning and from the packing and appearance this is either mint or brand new and just unused . So switch the network off unplug the current sfp cable insert the Cisco turn everything back on and let things come back on line . Play some music and the rabbit hole has come back . I am not going to say that much but there is a difference and it is all good in the Cisco cables favour . I am being told that there is no burn in for the optical cable but that the sfp plugs open up after being on 24 hours or so. Well happy now so if things get any better then that's a bonus .

 

[DomT]

@bencat Andrew you have the patience of a sedated saint. Best of luck with your digital journey.