Naim U Turn?

7

78rpm

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I was possibly one of the earliest users of Naim equipment having spent my first student grant cheque on a 42/110 combo back in the 70s.

Today, however, I find myself confused, let me explain; the fundamental cornerstone of everything that Naim makes is the belief that breaking the system up into sections and putting them in seperate boxes with seperate power supplies is the proper way to do the job. I remember a CD player that they made that didn't have a digital output because 'it upset the timing'.

So how are we supposed to believe that the SuperNait with all its digital circuits, digital inputs, connection to a Playstation, connection to a PC etc is a proper hi-fi product? Surely by Naims own philosophy it must be severely sonically compromised. Or have they U turned?

Personally, I cannot reconcile the SuperNait with the Naim philosophy, by their own arguments it cannot sound as good as a Nait5 and yet it is 3 times the price, what is going on here? Are we expected toaccept a compromise in sound qualityin exchange foradded functionality, that maybeOK at Cambridge Audio prices but we are talking serious money here!?

 

nixon_fiend

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As I recall the concept behind the 'supernait' - even the naim itself came from customer/fanboy pressure .. I remember long threads on their forum, lots of 'I'd buy one!'

^ Naim can't ignore good business sense now can they? And all kit is a compromise of sorts. The fact is that more and more people have LESS spece, MORE HD-based music...

The supernait is a well judged (and executed?) product that sets a precedent (or was that the s300iu ?)

More of it's kind will come!*

*Like the up-coming Heed obelisk .. also with inbuilt dac

 

White Pheasant

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Good question andone whichI'm surehas crosseda fewpeople's minds already.

I suppose we first need to look at thetechnical aspect of the situation. How much will allthis extra functionality actually compromise the sound quality? I'm sure there are people here better qualified than me to answer that question but my ownguess is that theremust be somedegradationof overallSQ with allthe extra circuitry involved.

So yes, it appears what we are seeing here is simply Naim responding to marketforces - ie. if you can't beat 'em, join 'em! Years ago, when Naim originally came out with their purist 'philosophies', we had a very different market place to the onewe see now and even companies likeNaim are having to change and adapt in order to survive in the modern world.

It appears to be quite a big gamble however because, on the one hand,they are certainly at risk of alienatingmany of their traditionallong standing customers and yet, on the other hand, the premium pricing of the newproduct surely won't appeal to many newcomers? We can only wait and see!

 
M

Mr Coherent

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Naim are in business, to survive you have to adapt and change with the market forces, and if your clever maybe even keep ahead.

Even if it goes against their 'ealier philisophies

naim certainly are not my bag at all, however you have to admire marketing and branding images.

First rate.

 

Hawk

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Mr Coherent wrote:

Naim are in business, to survive you have to adapt and change with the market forces, and if your clever maybe even keep ahead.Even if it goes against their 'ealier philisophies

naim certainly are not my bag at all, however you have to admire marketing and branding images.

First rate.
goodpost.gif.00822561e807cf35c79b3503f2e609d0.gif


I thin Naim have stayed truer to 2 channel than say Linn, and at the end of the day they still have more 2 channel focussed products than AV. The point is IMO, if they don't diversify to survive in the changing market place this 'sticking to 30 year old values' would be worth shit all anyway.

 

JamPal

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Mr Coherent wrote:

Naim are in business, to survive you have to adapt and change with the market forces, and if your clever maybe even keep ahead.Even if it goes against their 'ealier philisophies

naim certainly are not my bag at all, however you have to admire marketing and branding images.

First rate.
Spot on. There is nothing wrong at all with the Supernait as a product (i have made my feelings on the silly price clear elsewhere) and i see nothing wrong in adapting your business, and your philosphy to embrace new technologies and to adapt to market forces.

A Good move from Naim, and when they stop taking the piss with the dumb ass pricing strategy on this product, it will be very succesful.

 

White Pheasant

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HiFiWigWam wrote:

A Good move from Naim, and when they stop taking the piss with the dumb ass pricing strategy on this product, it will be very succesful.
But have you ever known Naim to reduce their originalselling price on any particular product?

I've got nothing against the new Supernait personally(I might even buy one myself if Naim kindly halved the price) but IMO the company is indeed making a kind of U-turn on it's original philosphies. And 'embracing new technologies' doesn't come into it - there's nothing new about it technically!

They've simply decided togive way (some would say 'sell out')to market pressure.

 

Davewhityetagain

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White Pheasant wrote:

HiFiWigWam wrote:
A Good move from Naim, and when they stop taking the piss with the dumb ass pricing strategy on this product, it will be very succesful.
But have you ever known Naim to reduce their originalselling price on any particular product?

I've got nothing against the new Supernait personally (I might even buy one myself if Naim kindly halved the price) but IMO the company is indeed making a kind of U-turn on it's original philosphies. And 'embracing new technologies' doesn't come into it - there's nothing new about it technically!

They've simply decided togive way (some would say 'sell out')to market pressure.
Naim sold out ages ago, when they started selling upgrade cables

all of a sudden a company with a history of say the provided cables are very good and you do not need to spend money on upgraded cables now flog expensive cables

 

JamPal

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White Pheasant wrote:

HiFiWigWam wrote:
A Good move from Naim, and when they stop taking the piss with the dumb ass pricing strategy on this product, it will be very succesful.
But have you ever known Naim to reduce their originalselling price on any particular product?

I've got nothing against the new Supernait personally (I might even buy one myself if Naim kindly halved the price) but IMO the company is indeed making a kind of U-turn on it's original philosphies. And 'embracing new technologies' doesn't come into it - there's nothing new about it technically!

They've simply decided togive way (some would say 'sell out')to market pressure.
Becaue they are a business, not artists. There is no such thing as Selling out in those terms when it comes to business.

i suppose the fever they manage to get going around them, means that when they make a business descision the faithfull can see it as in some way a departure from what they did before.

To my mind, they are a business. They make some nice HiFi, and sell it at the best price they can get, rather than sellign as much as they can. Their choice of model. I don't see any departure form that with this new product. it can be "upgraded" with external power supplies and addition amps so it is no different in that sense.

Confused by this debate.... why did it start. We were already discussing this on another thread. Some stirring maybe?

 

White Pheasant

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HiFiWigWam wrote:

Becaue they are a business, not artists.
I know they're a business and there to make money! The point is, when yourentire business ethos revolves around 'purity' - which in hifi termsincludes things like simplicity and separationand isolationof components- to suddenlyturnthat ethos on it's headfor the sake of responding tomarket pressuremust be slightlyembarassing to say the leastand surelynot something to be applauded.

It means the company's ethos either now has to change somewhat to emcompass this new product, or they're simply hoping that noone will notice!

 

cjr

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White Pheasant wrote:

HiFiWigWam wrote:
Becaue they are a business, not artists.
I know they're a business and there to make money! The point is, when yourentire business ethos revolves around 'purity' - which in hifi termsincludes things like simplicity and separationand isolationof components- to suddenlyturnthat ethos on it's headfor the sake of responding tomarket pressuremust be slightlyembarassing to say the leastand surelynot something to be applauded.

It means the company's ethos either now has to change somewhat to emcompass this new product, or they're simply hoping that noone will notice!
goodpost.gif.00822561e807cf35c79b3503f2e609d0.gif
, the purity issue I feel is one that 78rpm and many old school Naim users will find unpalatable, Naim are not the first and wont be the last to do a volte face after one marketing campaign, to adopt one at polar extremes of their last "direction", here are some companies with some interesting changes along the way :

MF - SACD this SACD that, only to say that their CDPs can sound as good when they go to drop SACD.

Chord - DAC 64 transport independent for 3 years, then da-da the Blu is foisted upon their loyal fanbase to much sniggering.

ATC pushing a cheapo DVD player on factory tours, then developing their own inhouse CD player.

If anyone has more fell free to add them.

 

JamPal

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White Pheasant wrote:

HiFiWigWam wrote:
Becaue they are a business, not artists.
I know they're a business and there to make money! The point is, when yourentire business ethos revolves around 'purity' - which in hifi termsincludes things like simplicity and separationand isolationof components- to suddenlyturnthat ethos on it's headfor the sake of responding tomarket pressuremust be slightlyembarassing to say the leastand surelynot something to be applauded.

It means the company's ethos either now has to change somewhat to emcompass this new product, or they're simply hoping that noone will notice!
Well I think it is absolutley to be applauded. Too many companies fail because the don't respond their market. A brave move and absolutely to be applauded.

 

cjr

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HiFiWigWam wrote:

White Pheasant wrote:
HiFiWigWam wrote:
Becaue they are a business, not artists.
I know they're a business and there to make money! The point is, when yourentire business ethos revolves around 'purity' - which in hifi termsincludes things like simplicity and separationand isolationof components- to suddenlyturnthat ethos on it's headfor the sake of responding tomarket pressuremust be slightlyembarassing to say the leastand surelynot something to be applauded.

It means the company's ethos either now has to change somewhat to emcompass this new product, or they're simply hoping that noone will notice!
Well I think it is absolutley to be applauded. Too many companies fail because the don't respond their market. A brave move and absolutely to be applauded.
Brave I agree, and I too hope it takes Naim in a different direction, I expect to see a few more seasoned Naim users spitting out their DIN connections if it carries on - esp as they get slowly banned from the Naim forum for sticking to the "old" ethos of purity (this term makes me laugh and is what is seen as wrong by many non Naim users of hifi of the flock), I mean its just not cricket I say !!
47_47.gif.482d183844f69ef6dec537ae753f214d.gif
.

 

White Pheasant

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HiFiWigWam wrote:

Too many companies fail because the don't respond their market.
I agree with you there James.

The trouble is, this means either:

a) Today's 'market' is not particularly interested in hifi purity (which isa shame is it not?)..... or

b)Naim's whole'purity' philosophy was a load of bollocks anyway and modern, fully featuredone-box solutionssound just as good.

 

jay

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78rpm wrote:

I was possibly one of the earliest users of Naim equipment having spent my first student grant cheque on a 42/110 combo back in the 70s. Today, however, I find myself confused, let me explain; the fundamental cornerstone of everything that Naim makes is the belief that breaking the system up into sections and putting them in seperate boxes with seperate power supplies is the proper way to do the job. I remember a CD player that they made that didn't have a digital output because 'it upset the timing'.

So how are we supposed to believe that the SuperNait with all its digital circuits, digital inputs, connection to a Playstation, connection to a PC etc is a proper hi-fi product? Surely by Naims own philosophy it must be severely sonically compromised. Or have they U turned?

Personally, I cannot reconcile the SuperNait with the Naim philosophy, by their own arguments it cannot sound as good as a Nait5 and yet it is 3 times the price, what is going on here? Are we expected toaccept a compromise in sound qualityin exchange foradded functionality, that maybeOK at Cambridge Audio prices but we are talking serious money here!?
I struggle with your reasoning 78rpm.

Naim, in fact any decent hifi company, is interested in producing the best that they can. Over time the rules of the game change - for everyone - customers and suppliers alike. Name me one company that hasn't changed their products or production techniques, or god forbid, actually learned something! Philosophies that once were well considered and accepted mutate over time according to both technological advance and customer requirements.

I mean where do you draw the line? At the 42/110? Is the use of RCA's unacceptable? Was 78rpm where it was at and everything else is just dross?

Naim hasn't given up on your power supply and separate boxes mantra. You can still buy them. The supernait is one product amongst many. In fact you can already buy a Naim pre-amp with DAC's and LCD display!

Stop living in the past. Naim has changed because it has to. Even if you don't buy any new Naim equipment for the rest of your life at least you can still get your old stuff serviced because they're still in business. You don't have to buy Naim, buy what you want, but don't expect the world to stop because it won't.

Jay

 

jay

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White Pheasant wrote:

HiFiWigWam wrote:
Becaue they are a business, not artists.
I know they're a business and there to make money! The point is, when yourentire business ethos revolves around 'purity' - which in hifi termsincludes things like simplicity and separationand isolationof components- to suddenlyturnthat ethos on it's headfor the sake of responding tomarket pressuremust be slightlyembarassing to say the leastand surelynot something to be applauded.

It means the company's ethos either now has to change somewhat to emcompass this new product, or they're simply hoping that noone will notice!
maybe the technology is now there to successfully implement those things when they couldn't be before? is that so hard to believe?

there is no sudden change here. Naim have a sub/sat system and a DVD player. the evil of it all
biggrin.png


 

uzzy

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78rpm wrote:

I was possibly one of the earliest users of Naim equipment having spent my first student grant cheque on a 42/110 combo back in the 70s. Today, however, I find myself confused, let me explain; the fundamental cornerstone of everything that Naim makes is the belief that breaking the system up into sections and putting them in seperate boxes with seperate power supplies is the proper way to do the job. I remember a CD player that they made that didn't have a digital output because 'it upset the timing'.

So how are we supposed to believe that the SuperNait with all its digital circuits, digital inputs, connection to a Playstation, connection to a PC etc is a proper hi-fi product? Surely by Naims own philosophy it must be severely sonically compromised. Or have they U turned?

Personally, I cannot reconcile the SuperNait with the Naim philosophy, by their own arguments it cannot sound as good as a Nait5 and yet it is 3 times the price, what is going on here? Are we expected toaccept a compromise in sound qualityin exchange foradded functionality, that maybeOK at Cambridge Audio prices but we are talking serious money here!?
Naim is not the naim of old the Guru Mr Veriker has gone (RIP). WHen the first Naims came out they were simple black boxes of competitive price and of their time sounded good. They didn't like difficult loads (they used to refuse to drive things like Gale GS401s at any reasonable level without cutting out) but for the price they were a revalation at the time.

Uzzy:nerd:

 

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