No wish to start another forum outbreak but ?

[bencat]

Okay the WTF and some other threads have become locked because they were becoming cyclical with no possible chance of a sensible outcome . I freely admit to not being much use when shown most forms of measurement and often need someone to explain in simple terms what they are and what they mean . I am interested but still just do not find any correlation between the sound produced and the measurement I see . Before anyone gets wound up about this this is my failure and not a comment on the measurements I just find it very hard to put the two together and see one as the consequence of the other. (in other words I am thick but I am trying to big myself these days so going easy on myself) .

However while reading a review on here i cam across this and just thought well if really experienced and technically savvy people can hear an issue but not know why and only find the correct measurement later then there is a very good reason while all design should include listening as a vital part of product design . Measurements are good things but they are neither complete or in some cases true indicators of what we hear .

Clearly, you are proud of the great measurements of the DAC but how important is listening in your assessment process of the design and execution of the ADI-2 DAC?
Very important, as that is what we later do with it - listen to music! In fact, in all the years of RME we several times ran into audible problems that were not found with measurements before. Of course, once you know there is a problem you will find the respective measurement later on that allows you to identify and quantify the issue. Meanwhile, the number of available/performed measurements fills a complete book alone, so chances are low that a fully measured/examined unit shows unexpected behaviour. Then again, some things you have to try and not rely on complicated measurement setups. How long is the mute time needed when switching from PCM to DSD? How fast can we switch sample rates within PCM? What are the best default settings to make Bass and Treble sound really good?

 

[JANDL100]

 

[uzzy]

Clearly, you are proud of the great measurements of the DAC but how important is listening in your assessment process of the design and execution of the ADI-2 DAC?

The problem with DACs .. as Mike Valentine says about digitial .. You take a piece of meat and you mince it up and then you put back together but it is now a sausage or a burger. We all agree that DACs can sound different (where they measure the same or closely similar) in my opinion (which many may disagree with but it is MY opinion) is DACs sound different and very few sound right.

At the end of the day a review giving the reviewers listening view , is worthless unless we have a comparision with a product we have auditioned which provides a benchmark as to whether our ears have similar views to the reviewer (after all one man's soniic nirvana is another man's earache). So for example in here when Flash or Fourlegs make a comment about how something sounds I have been to listen to their systems (which was very enjoyable and I could live with either) and so I know where they are coming from.

So similarly with magazines there have been a few reviewers who when they say something sounds great I can expect to agree with them in most cases when I get to audition for myself (Dave Berryman springs to mind .. I got to meet him some years back and what a gentleman he is and I hope he is still alive and kicking). There are other revieeres (the majority) who leave me cold but I do understand the difficult job they have as a bad review could lead to a massive loss in advetising revenue for the magazine.

I can only say that for me when my ears love the sound of something I also like to see the measurements to make sure that my ears are not deceiving me and by that I mean, sometimes you hear a product that is so impressive but then you liisten for a few hours with lots or material and it becomes wearing and the gloss is worn off and you realise that you oould not live with it.

There is no need to have arguments as to whether measurement is important or not - if you do not think it is then ignore it when people mention measurements and remember every designer will measure and take note of them in their designs.

 

[Tony T]

A sensible audio company starts with measurements and ends with listening. What companies R&D just build via measurements exclusively? This is just hysterial nonsense Imo. Sure, there may be a outlier or two (there always is) but otherwise it’s just nonsense and adding more fuel to a subject that seems to impart paranoia in some people (ruining a hobby/no fun/no love of music etc etc etc) And yes, my DAC measures wonderfully as does my class D amps. My Class A monos and recently departed Quad 33/303 not so much, do I give a shit? No. I get a lot of satisfaction from all sorts of kit. I listen and I like or don’t, it’s interesting to see if a bit of kit you own measures well, that’s all, nothing sinister.

 

[StingRay]

Depends what you are measuring, DACs seems meaningless, even the guy who does them reckons they all sound the same, not something I would agree with. Speakers yes certainly some merit with measurements there.

 

[DomT]

A sensible audio company starts with measurements and ends with listening. What companies R&D just build via measurements exclusively? This is just hysterial nonsense Imo. Sure, there may be a outlier or two (there always is) but otherwise it’s just nonsense and adding more fuel to a subject that seems to impart paranoia in some people (ruining a hobby/no fun/no love of music etc etc etc) And yes, my DAC measures wonderfully as does my class D amps. My Class A monos and recently departed Quad 33/303 not so much, do I give a shit? No. I get a lot of satisfaction from all sorts of kit. I listen and I like or don’t, it’s interesting to see if a bit of kit you own measures well, that’s all, nothing sinister.

Quad apparently never did. listening tests as they didn’t see the point.

Benchmark’s findings are similar to RMEs. On forum people take comfort in different things.

I was thinking about creating a thread about how to turn measurements into meaning words that non-technicians could understand eg if an amplifier is more dynamic sounding then this measurement could/will tell you how dynamic or this amplifier has a more pronounced bass response to this measurement could/will tell you how pronounced. It could have been very helpful to many but I didn’t because I imagined that the thread would not produce the desired helpful outcome.

 

[Paul55]

The problem with DACs .. as Mike Valentine says about digitial .. You take a piece of meat and you mince it up and then you put back together but it is now a sausage or a burger.

Really bad analogy. What is the meat after cutting lathe, plating, plating, stamping, stylus? Salami?

We all agree that DACs can sound different (where they measure the same or closely similar) in my opinion (which many may disagree with but it is MY opinion) is DACs sound different and very few sound right.

I don't agree.

 

[garn63]

Is that because of the hot weather we've been having though ?
I've been not agreeing when I should be agreeing ?

 

[uzzy]

Really bad analogy. What is the meat after cutting lathe, plating, plating, stamping, stylus? Salami?

The record groove is a physical manifestation of the waveform of the recorded sound.

So for example if you looked at that 600 Hz sound on an oscilloscope, you'd see a sinusoidal waveform that's identical to the record groove. Now check a cd or digital medium and you will find - oh yes zeros and ones. Something had to convert that analogue signal to a digital one and then convert it back. Also the musician and record producer Dave Grusin believes the only way to get the best from digitial is to record as live ass possible on two tracks for stereo. His reasoning is each track is a sample of what is recorded, the more tracks the more samples and when mixed down to two tracks it is a sample of a sample.

All I do know is when you listen to a Grusin record you wish that all records were as well produced and soundwise was their equal

 

[Warszawa]

The record groove is a physical manifestation of the waveform of the recorded sound.

I love vinyl, especially AAA, but you can't seriously think that equates to a more flawless reproduction of the original analogue wave than a good digital reconstruction filter. It also assumes the source is entirely in the analogue domain.

 

[bencat]

Sadly while I do understand the view given the music produce d by Dave Grusin I wish he had donated the studio time to someone else a comment on the music not the recording . I get annoyed with this kind of comment as there is so much wonderful sounding music recorded digitally and then presented in a digital format . There is also wonderful music that was recorded in analogue and then presented as a digital format . Both can and do sound wonderful saying one or the other is deficient is just not true .

 

[DomT]

The record groove is a physical manifestation of the waveform of the recorded sound.

So for example if you looked at that 600 Hz sound on an oscilloscope, you'd see a sinusoidal waveform that's identical to the record groove. Now check a cd or digital medium and you will find - oh yes zeros and ones. Something had to convert that analogue signal to a digital one and then convert it back. Also the musician and record producer Dave Grusin believes the only way to get the best from digitial is to record as live ass possible on two tracks for stereo. His reasoning is each track is a sample of what is recorded, the more tracks the more samples and when mixed down to two tracks it is a sample of a sample.

All I do know is when you listen to a Grusin record you wish that all records were as well produced and soundwise was their equal

His logic is a bit flawed. It’s not that it’s a sample of a sample it’s really about more complex mixes. The more simultaneous instruments being played on a track the more difficult it will be to mix each part so that they have space in the mix. And the HiFi system will have to be very clear to be able to render the mix with the desired degree of clarity.

 

[montesquieu]

Most of the technical guff about DACs is completley misplaced.

The main difference at the listener's ears between DACs is nothing to do with its digital specification, but is down to the output stage - many CDPs and most cheap dacs use a 10p op amp. A more expensive one might use a 50p or (in rare cases) a £2 one.

Pretty much exclusively, the best DACs and all in one disk spinners use a discrete output stage (valve or FET - and not used simply as a buffer) and some pretty sophisticated power supplies - the Audio Note DACs, the Lampis, other DACs at that level. The Audio Note DACs use an 18-bit AD1865 chip, capable of 96/24 maximum, and the best of them sound better than any 32bit DAC I've ever come across.

There's a substantial body of evidence out there that identifies significant down-sides to hi-res, quite enough (if you subscribe to the reasoning) to cast the whole hi-res project into doubt. Digital specs are probably still worth spending time on (up to a point) but they really mean sod-all in comparison to the difference made by an output stage.

And good mastering is, in turn, more important than any of that.

 

[Lawrence001]

I love vinyl, especially AAA,

So Mo Fi is out then 😂

 

[tuga]

The problem with DACs .. as Mike Valentine says about digitial .. You take a piece of meat and you mince it up and then you put back together but it is now a sausage or a burger.

I do not wish to sound rude but that is absolute bollocks and only shows Valentine's ignorance...

 

[tuga]

Pretty much exclusively, the best DACs and all in one disk spinners use a discrete output stage (valve or FET - and not used simply as a buffer) and some pretty sophisticated power supplies - the Audio Note DACs, the Lampis, other DACs at that level. The Audio Note DACs use an 18-bit AD1865 chip, capable of 96/24 maximum, and the best of them sound better than any 32bit DAC I've ever come across.

Sound better to you perhaps. That doesn't make them universally best.
I for one wouldn't touch any with a barge pole.

 

[Tony T]

Quad apparently never did. listening tests as they didn’t see the point.

Benchmark’s findings are similar to RMEs. On forum people take comfort in different things.

I was thinking about creating a thread about how to turn measurements into meaning words that non-technicians could understand eg if an amplifier is more dynamic sounding then this measurement could/will tell you how dynamic or this amplifier has a more pronounced bass response to this measurement could/will tell you how pronounced. It could have been very helpful to many but I didn’t because I imagined that the thread would not produce the desired helpful outcome.

I simply don’t equate measurements with music and don’t intend to do so anytime soon, it’s just information to me. There’s plenty of room for both objective and subjective outlook imo. I tend to ignore threads about what I consider to be questionable tweaks or just plain odd ideas but I’d expect to be banned for pissing on someone else’s parade, who am I to tell anyone what to do with their enjoyment?
We’re all adults ffs, everyone behave like one. Stop and think before pressing Post Reply.

 

[Fourlegs]

I can only say that for me when my ears love the sound of something I also like to see the measurements to make sure that my ears are not deceiving me

I have bought most (all?) of my most expensive hifi purchases based on what my ears tell me and without looking at any measurements at all. In fact I can expand that to all of my hifi purchases irrespective of cost.

 

[Psilonaught]

The main difference at the listener's ears between DACs is nothing to do with its digital specification, but is down to the output stage - many CDPs and most cheap dacs use a 10p op amp. A more expensive one might use a 50p or (in rare cases) a £2 one.

totally agree, the output stage is extremely important

 

[DomT]

I have bought most (all?) of my most expensive hifi purchases based on what my ears tell me and without looking at any measurements at all. In fact I can expand that to all of my hifi purchases irrespective of cost.

I will admit that my last amp purchase was influence by two measurements: Firstly the power consumption is very low so I can leave it on all day. Secondly it’s an integrated amp and takes up 50% of the shelf space of the pre and power amp that it replaced. Some measurements are more useful than others. 😂😂