Non Smoking Man's big horn system

[speedysteve]

Well as promised here are some pics of the progress. I've started a new thread as they are not my horns anymore:nup: :cs: but I am helping Jack to run them up.

After moving some stuff around and setting up we got things installed for a photo opportunity.

Pretty impressive sight in room.





apologies for the pic quality. Only had my phone camera on me and black against bright light from patio door was not ideal.

The drivers are:

15" JBL's in the 6ft folded horn bass bins

15" Vitavox in the mid bass conicals

2" BMS 4596 compression drivers the mid horns (ones highest up)

1" BMS compression drivers in the upper mid horns (smallest horns)

Beyma bullet tweeters.

It remains to be seen where we cross things, (will be measuring to check things). I guess it won't be a million miles away from what I used as the mid bass with the 15" Vita's and the BMS 4596's will be the same as before.

Looking at it, a stereo 2 x 10" driver tapped horn arrangement would fit nicely atop of the podium steps just under the ceiling, to perhaps make the bass bins redundant or go deeper than their 35Hz. Jack seemed quite taken with this idea... Would need DSP or Anti-modes to control things though.

It is to be an all analogue system (at least at first). Modded TD 124 vinyl spinner, Valve pre (forget what), Ashley passive X/O's / attenuation and 2 beefy tranny amps on bass channels and 3 valve amps on the mid and upper channels (Jack, please fill in the details).

We plan to play this against my Najda DSP X/O unit at some stage, but first will focus on getting it going and sounding as good as we can.

Next set up session is Friday, so more news then...

 

[Hayward]

Feck! Who turned the lights out?

 

[browellm]

That's no moon.

 

[Hornucopia]

Feedback into the turntable.....should be great!.

But only 35c/s bass?

Impressive though.

NSM must be single or have a converted garage free? (-:

(Though a guy I saw with 8 sets of huge old retro speakers -in one room!! - was (still!) married!)

 

[AmDismal]

Plenty of space between the bass horns and the stacks for some tapped horns

 

[speedysteve]

This morning was spent connecting up (after some other gear shifting).

We got sound playing through a 2 channel Ashley X/O into the sub bass bins. Focus then turned onto the Ashley 4 way unit, BUT it is only 4 way as in you can set 3 X/O points between 4 drivers. So no good for stopping out 2nd channels the mid bass playing low open.

Then time was up so more to be done next time. One option was to use the lower half of my old passive X/O, but that idea is stuffed cos Jack's Vitavox's are 15ohm, I use 8ohm drivers... 15 ohm would need a massive 45mH indutor. my 24mH ones cost £70 at least! But at least the cap would be smaller value - 67uF.

Then I thought about using a Behringer DCX2496 in the line level after the Ashley has done the higher slope X/O. That would work and at least get Jack going.

He is not keen on borrowing both DCX's and going DSP. Can't say I blame him - they are mush mush SQ wise...

Another alt. is just to let the mid bass horn roll off at horn cut off point. Will re-visit the sim for the horn and driver and see what that might be. We will of course measure it too and see - might be lucky and it works.

 

[Hornucopia]

Yeah, natural roll-offs are a godsend!

 

[paulf-2007]

whats your opinion of the Ashley XO? I am about to help someone who is using one with his 3 way.

 

[speedysteve]

Yeah, natural roll-offs are a godsend!

Will have to be so save Jack forking out some more

- - - Updated - - -

whats your opinion of the Ashley XO? I am about to help someone who is using one with his 3 way.

Hmm, Only heard the bass bins though them so far. Hard to form an opinion Twiddling the knobs made the freq raise and lower as it should, that much we could hear. Also the attenuation capability might be a bit limited as most of the amps Jack is using have no attenuation adjustment - we'll see.

Will let you know once all are up and running.

I keep pushing Jack towards Najda as it is sooooo good and easy. Mind you the 5th way is yet to come, but there are slopes both sides of the X/O point; ). It would cut his box count a bit too.

Jack is firmly in analogue land at the moment though.

 

[Non-Smoking Man]

Small correction to SS's summary of this system - The subwoofers have 18" JBLs, not 15s. Also, The 15" Vitavox's are 7.5 ohms and not 15 ohms - so the High Pass filter idea is back on the menu.

Single, Hornucopia. (But all my partners have been jivers, so Im still in with a shout - I reckon I could woo her with a Continuous Pretzel as theres plenty of room now Ive dumped the sofa to make room for all this.)

Steve has been a colossus in the last few weeks - thankyou.

Jack

 

[Non-Smoking Man]

whats your opinion of the Ashley XO? I am about to help someone who is using one with his 3 way.

Paul - I had a 3 way Ashly before (with 12 db slopes) and I really liked it. I bought it from Bottleneck, who imported it. I think it was an XR 2001. I think Valvebloke has it now. Im sticking with Ashly because of this. Im open to persuasion if we can better them in an A/B test (in our minds).

The pre is a valve Consonance Basie (DIY Supply). It is a kit amp but this was built by the factory. Could be betterred I dare say but at a cost.

Front end is a choice between a few Ive collected - 401 (soon to be partnered with a lovely arm), TD124 and a Cranfield Rock (currently sporting an Alphason H100 and Cadenza Blue. I have a Sony CD player also.

Amps :

JBL MPX1200 sub bass

Aranov PP valve

Rogue 88 (Definitive mods)

Audio Synthesis Desire

WAD

 

[speedysteve]

Small correction to SS's summary of this system - The subwoofers have 18" JBLs, not 15s. Also, The 15" Vitavox's are 7.5 ohms and not 15 ohms - so the High Pass filter idea is back on the menu.Single, Hornucopia. (But all my partners have been jivers, so Im still in with a shout - I reckon I could woo her with a Continuous Pretzel as theres plenty of room now Ive dumped the sofa to make room for all this.)

Steve has been a colossus in the last few weeks - thankyou.

Jack

Thanks Jack. Those 18" drivers look smaller in the bass bins

Yes, if they are 7.5 then the passives I have will work very close intended XO freq.

All will be revealed when we measure...

 

[paulf-2007]

thanks Jack, then we can safely assume that's not the weak link and its the poor choice of amps, amps with far too much grunt on the mids and highs. i.e. 100w mono's on JBL 2440 118db.

Paul - I had a 3 way Ashly before (with 12 db slopes) and I really liked it. I bought it from Bottleneck, who imported it. I think it was an XR 2001. I think Valvebloke has it now. Im sticking with Ashly because of this. Im open to persuasion if we can better them in an A/B test (in our minds).The pre is a valve Consonance Basie (DIY Supply). It is a kit amp but this was built by the factory. Could be betterred I dare say but at a cost.

Front end is a choice between a few Ive collected - 401 (soon to be partnered with a lovely arm), TD124 and a Cranfield Rock (currently sporting an Alphason H100 and Cadenza Blue. I have a Sony CD player also.

Amps :

JBL MPX1200 sub bass

Aranov PP valve

Rogue 88 (Definitive mods)

Audio Synthesis Desire

WAD

 

[Non-Smoking Man]

Please bear in mind Paul that the brief for this system is high SPL capability as well as domestic acceptability. Earlier (Somewhere!) this has been mentioned. Further, the system is still in transistion from an active 3 way system using direct radiating speakers to a 5 way horn system and funds are limited. Hence the relatively highpowered valve amps which look out of place in a domestic system.

When I first went public with the idea for this system on the Forum I was told I would need MORE power! We will see..

Steve and I learnt a bit more this morning. We know now, for example, that we have a 5 way active crossover which works. (Earlier disquiet and talk of introducing passive filters etc is behind us, for example.) It measures reasonably well although there are tweeter anamolies; and, the Rogue has a hum problem.

Steve will be showing the measurements below.

Jack

 

[speedysteve]

Here are a few measurements

Bass bins on own



Bass bins, Mid bass and Mid



Mid / Upper mid and Tweeter



Note: These are taken before any volume levelling.

For some reason when I started measuring the full sweep the tweeter was not registering but it was playing music. We tried the mic on axis / beam but still nothing.

Twiddling the dials on the Ashly's gave rise to corresponding XO and slope changes so they work. Some pots were a bit scratchy - perhaps some Servisol switch cleaner?

The bass bins do a nice deep freq in Jack's smaller room (at Scalford they dived below 35Hz). Here I suspect the a room mode is helping to give lots at 30Hz and quite a lot at 25Hz and even some below. We could certainly entertain the neighbours no problem.

Could not get them above 70 odd Hz. Previous owner said upto 100Hz in sales pitch... Can't remember what they managed at Scalford.

As Jack said we have the mother of all hum on the Mid bass amp - isolated to definitely an amp issue. It still played some music and tones but prob affected the measurements on that horn somewhat.

Balancing levels by ear (I have become a dab hand at that with all the practice I've have had on my system) it sounded like a stereo.

The Sony CDP is of questionable quality as a source so more to be done there.

More refinement to come.

In general the amps need to be quiet! Have to remember we are connecting amps to compression drivers of very high efficiency on horns so around 115 - 118dB/w with no X/O in between then (that's done at line level), and of course no L-Pads sucking efficiency and life out that you would have in for example your boggo Tannoy's or other mainstream crappy speakers. So any amp noise is put nicely IN YOUR FACE.

I will take a couple of spare T-amps over to get Jack going hum free and then we'll start to hear what's what.

They are not going to be up there Vitaxov S2 on crucual upper mid / Raal Lazy ribbon on tweeter but we should get something good going. The Mids we know are good - BMS 4596's and the mid bass Vitavox 15's sounded great at my place when we tested one.

P.S. it will go very loud" - I am sure of that

 

[rmsshipbroker]

Incredible, amazing how focusing on sound scientific and engineering principles for musical sound generation can lead to such lunacy.

How far away do you have to be from the speakers gents for the sound to integrate?

Or isn't that an issue?

Cheers

(Another) Steve

 

[speedysteve]

Well

Distance to integrate can be as little 6'. I have about 12ft from my drivers to ears - so not really an issue.

Lunacy is perhaps more appropriate to apply to what many try to do in attempting to get a hifi sound out of some boxes with some passive radiating drivers mounted in them, and the box swapping that goes on striving for a sound that is acceptable with absolutely no attempt to measure in room or the ability to adjust the individual crossover points, slopes and driver SPL .

For some reason people will pay many many thousands for variations on these non-configurable systems.

Incredible, amazing how focusing on sound scientific and engineering principles for musical sound generation can lead to such lunacy. How far away do you have to be from the speakers gents for the sound to integrate?

Or isn't that an issue?

Cheers

(Another) Steve

 

[rmsshipbroker]

Well Distance to integrate can be as little 6'. I have about 12ft from my drivers to ears - so not really an issue.

Lunacy is perhaps more appropriate to apply to what many try to do in attempting to get a hifi sound out of some boxes with some passive radiating drivers mounted in them, and the box swapping that goes on striving for a sound that is acceptable with absolutely no attempt to measure in room or the ability to adjust the individual crossover points, slopes and driver SPL .

For some reason people will pay many many thousands for variations on these non-configurable systems.

Cheers Steve

As someone partway down that path, I find it hard to disagree.

Just out of interest, what are you moving on to, more horns presumably?

 

[speedysteve]

Cheers SteveAs someone partway down that path, I find it hard to disagree.

Just out of interest, what are you moving on to, more horns presumably?

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?54198-5-Way-horn-project-big-boy-system!&p=1635950&viewfull=1#post1635950