Not getingt best from Sugden A21se

[LeeScan]

Hello

Ive recently purchased a used A21se in excellent condition, to use between my inspire quest/ OL Onyx arm with 2m Blue / Whest Two phono stage and my Rogers LS6a speakers. It replaces a Meridian 208 Pre and Quad 909 power, i cant quite put my finger on what doesnt seem right to me, maybe it all sounds a little vague but I'm not enjoying it as much, the individual sounds dont seem to be working together? I wondered if anyone could help at all.

One thing i was wondering about was that fact i have quite long speaker cable runs, 9 meters each side and i'm using Nordost 2 Flat under the carpet, i'm thinking something like van damme 6mm copper stuff might help?

Any suggestions gratefully received as I'm feeling a little disappoint with the Sugden so far although I'm sure it is a wonderful amp when its right.

Speakers are 89db & 8 Ohm. I listen to all sorts from Early Fairport Convention to Kraftwork and Can. I do like the big smooth electronic sounds.

Lee

 

[Alvolake]

How old is it ? and do you feel it is a bit lacking in bass weight and sounds a bit relentless ? The reason I ask is that just last week an engineer mate of mine opened up my 8 year old A21se to have a look at it and quite alarmed he said I had to change the reservoir caps and the output caps asap because they had swollen and looked ripe candidates for a messy episode. I have now had them changed for some very basic jackon electrolytics (10,000uF, 50v and 85ºC) and things have gone back to the balanced non-fatiguing sound of yore. Of course, had I lived in the UK I would just have taken it to Suggies but in my case this wasn´t really on. I am waiting on some super duper Mundorf M-Lytics s (10.000uF, 63v and 125º) to arrive to make a better job and of course over here in the Canaries, summer temps can be a bit higher than in the UK. Even so, might well be worth your while to head over the Pennines, our kid.

 

[bandit pilot]

I'm not offering a magic wand here, but I recently had to contact Sugden regarding capacitance using long cables. I was told that they are tested under capacitive load, but not with the length I was using with it (5m). It might be worth doing an experiment with some shorter cables to see if that does the trick. Otherwise, I would blame a lack of synergy between your speakers/amp. It happens. I don't expect the Sugden will have as much clout as the Quad either.

 

[LeeScan]

How old is it ? and do you feel it is a bit lacking in bass weight and sounds a bit relentless ? The reason I ask is that just last week an engineer mate of mine opened up my 8 year old A21se to have a look at it and quite alarmed he said I had to change the reservoir caps and the output caps asap because they had swollen and looked ripe candidates for a messy episode. I have now had them changed for some very basic jackon electrolytics (10,000uF, 50v and 85ºC) and things have gone back to the balanced non-fatiguing sound of yore. Of course, had I lived in the UK I would just have taken it to Suggies but in my case this wasn´t really on. I am waiting on some super duper Mundorf M-Lytics s (10.000uF, 63v and 125º) to arrive to make a better job and of course over here in the Canaries, summer temps can be a bit higher than in the UK. Even so, might well be worth your while to head over the Pennines, our kid.

It is alittle bass light yes, the unit was made in 2008 so 5 years old. It's difficult to know whether I'm detecting an error in the signal, lack of synergy between amp and speakers or me not getting in to that Sugden sound. I hope it's not the last option I'll feel like such an outsider. It's £120 for a sugden service so that probable makes sense to rule that out. Thanks for the reply.

 

[LeeScan]

I'm not offering a magic wand here, but I recently had to contact Sugden regarding capacitance using long cables. I was told that they are tested under capacitive load, but not with the length I was using with it (5m). It might be worth doing an experiment with some shorter cables to see if that does the trick. Otherwise, I would blame a lack of synergy between your speakers/amp. It happens. I don't expect the Sugden will have as much clout as the Quad either.

Yes I think your right. I've order some 6mm van damme too, big think copper cable will give piece of mind if nothing else that little flat skinny stuff has never sat well with me, means to an end. I know what you mean about the quad but that would seem understandable if I had the volume pot flat out but I'm barley turning the dial ( past 7 o'clock ) and its too loud, but with a certain lack of togetherness IMO. Reading about the van damme stuff and its reasonable price makes me skeptical of expensive stuff, where I wasn't before. Now I'm thinking that think high copper is all I need. But like Graucho my principals can change!

 

[MotherSky]

I would strongly suggest that this is a synergy issue - you may not like the Sugden sound anyway, but to get an idea of what people are on about, see if you can borrow some Proacs (I'm sure they may be other equally valid candidates, but Proac definitely work very well with Sugden)

 

[Alvolake]

that would seem understandable if I had the volume pot flat out but I'm barley turning the dial ( past 7 o'clock ) and its too loud,

When you say barely past 7 o´clock, I thought mine was too short at the beginning of the volume pot´s range and on mine, I need o get to almost 9 o´clock and my speakers are WD25TEx and also supposedly 89dB. That doesn´t sound right to me with the Rogers. Might something be saturating ? Try another input. I have never found my Sugdens respond much to changes in speaker cables if at all..

 

[unclepuncle]

I never really got the Sugden sound (tried Masterclass and A21) even with Living Voice speakers which should suit, so I'd just sell it and try something different.

They hold their money so you shouldn't lose out, unless you bought it new or at a stupidly inflated price. For the money you'll get for the Sugden there are a world of options - several great integrateds right here in the classifeds - ATC, Perreaux, Krell etc.

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?88193-FS-Krell-KAV-400-xi-integrated

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?81632-FS-Perreaux-Eloquence-150i-Integrated-Amp

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?89263-atc-sia-2-150-integrated-amp-swaps

 

[ridley]

Hi,

I used an A21SE for a few years driving Proac 1SC's & it sounded fantastic with no lack of bass, the Sugden sound is crystal clear & very clean, that may not be a great match with the Nordost cables & may be pushing the balance to far in the brighter direction.

Cheers

Simon.

 

[bandit pilot]

Yes I think your right. I've order some 6mm van damme too, big think copper cable will give piece of mind if nothing else that little flat skinny stuff has never sat well with me, means to an end. I know what you mean about the quad but that would seem understandable if I had the volume pot flat out but I'm barley turning the dial ( past 7 o'clock ) and its too loud, but with a certain lack of togetherness IMO. Reading about the van damme stuff and its reasonable price makes me skeptical of expensive stuff, where I wasn't before. Now I'm thinking that think high copper is all I need. But like Graucho my principals can change!

The different cables will have a positive effect, hopefully. I have never heard your amp. I'm sure it's very good at what it does, but that might not be what you want. One of the artists you mention certainly needs slam and drive to make it convincing, which I don't think Sugden are renowned for. You could always do the unthinkable and host a bakeoff. Invite some 'wammers round along with speakers to try a few different flavours before you make any big decisions. You are more than welcome to pop over here with your amp to see if it is capable of delivering. My speakers will certainly measure it, but are nearly immovable.

 

[Purite Audio]

The Sugden is only 23 watts? I don't think it is capable of. driving your loudspeakers properly, 89ohms is the nominal impedance and I would expect there to be points on the frequency curve where they dip much lower.

Keith.

 

[Alistair T]

It is interesting you are finding the Sugden a little lacking. I changed from a Quad 909 driving Spendor S9e speakers through 5M cables to a brand new Sugden A21SE, and couldn't get on with it. The initial impact was a wonderful sound, but after a while I though there was something missing. It wasn't specifically the bass or anything else, but there was something not quite right. In the end I went back to the 909 and while the sound wasn't quite as good as with the Sugden the enjoyment factor was much better. I put it down to the Quad driving the Spendors better, i.e. a synergy issue.

At the time I was experiencing these problems, the Sugden A21 range was going through a period of adulation with loads of posts saying how good they are, so I thought it must just be me who cannot get on with them Maybe not.

 

[simon g]

Flatline does have quite a high resistance and at 9m you may well hear the effect of this.

I found the Sugden A21SE to be a bit of a disappointment, to be honest, as others have commented.

I'd be looking to try something else and also change the cables, if you must have 9m. Van Damme Blue would be be a good choice.

 

[nipponhifi]

The Sugden is only 23 watts? I don't think it is capable of. driving your loudspeakers properly, 89ohms is the nominal impedance and I would expect there to be points on the frequency curve where they dip much lower.Keith.

I think the nominal impedance of the Ls6a is 8 Ohms, not 89 Ohms... efficiency is 89dB...

Looking at the specs, the Rogers are similar to (a little more efficient than) the ProAc Response 1SC, and as has been stated, that is a 'classic' combination with the A21se. It's never going to be a wall shaking system but it should sound decent - in the context of what a Sugden / Rogers combination will sound like - so it may be that it's just not for you.

How large is your room? If you're running 9m cables, is it on the large side?

 

[Purite Audio]

Sorry typo, it would be interesting to see the impedance curve of the Rogers,

Keith.

 

[Alvolake]

In any case, that wouldn´t explain why the OP only has the volume turned up to 7 o´clock (from zero = 6 o´clock) and it sounds too loud.

 

[nipponhifi]

In any case, that wouldn´t explain why the OP only has the volume turned up to 7 o´clock (from zero = 6 o´clock) and it sounds too loud.

Quite true...

Lee, please accept my apology if this is a stupid question - I intend no offence - but is your version equipped with an onboard phono stage? If so, are you sure you are not running the Whest phonostage into the onboard phono stage?

 

[Alvolake]

There is no onboard phono stage option with the A21SE. Only with the smaller A21a is there a built-in phono stage card.

Check that you have the Whest set for your Ortofon MM (40dB) and not then higher levels which are for MC

 

[LeeScan]

Thanks for all the responses all very helpful and good to know others have felt my frustration namely in not being able to understand if there is a problem or where it is. I have reduced it down to the fact I'm not enjoying the sound but I just can't define why. Whest is set according to manual for MM and does seem to match my CD for loudness.

So some steps I have taken - ordered some Van Damme Blue 6mm cable but this hasn't arrived yet.

Spoke to Sugden and they didn't seem to think it sounded like there was any problem with the amp itself.

I have some q Accoustic 2020i's in the office connected to the pc so I though I'd give them a whirl to check the synergy theory and low and behold they are singing. That icy clarity others have spoken about could be experienced. The £140 speakers are being given a real treat but they are truly out performing their price tag. So it would seem synergy between the Rogers and Sugden was the issue and really it's the Rogers that should go, but they way I listen to music is very much in the living room sense having people round moving about occasional sit down to admire the sound, never in the sit down in a listening position type way. And in accomodating this the Rogers have been very good and I supect the Sugden would be much better placed in the designated listening room sceanario so I have managed to agree a deal on the above mention Krell 400 and will see how that fairs with the Rogers. So the sugden will be going. So will the Whest Two actually I've gotten hold of a Icon Audio ps 1.2 to hopefully warm things up a little. Thanks for all the help/ advice.