PRaT : to have or not to have

[Sheva]

A couple of threads recently have dealt with the pros and cons of a certain brand based in Salisbury. What I don’t understand is why they’re the only ones who seem to get it in the neck for “accentuating the upper bass (or whatever it is that they’re supposed to be doing to the sound)â€. There are other brands which are reputed to also have a high PRaT factor, such as Exposure, Densen etc. But surely they’re just doing the same thing, by manipulating or colouring the sound in the same way, so as to make your feet tap.

And can only systems which have this bass emphasis have this PRaT factor ? Brands such as Cyrus have a lean sound but are reputed to be highly rhythmic. I would have thought that a lean taut bass would actually give the impression of sounding faster with better timing.

And there’s more’s …so Naim’s supposed to be best for pop and rock, but so much modern pop and rock is heavily influenced electronically. So surely systems which have a cleaner and leaner sound are going to convey techno, synth-pop, electro-industrial etc. more accurately.

Sheva.

 

[josh]

Well in actual fact you don't really want your techno/electro to be conveyed too clearly, you want a bit of roughness in there to make it dirty and gritty. For that reason a lot of tek-heads prefer the vinyl format over the CDJs that are becoming more prevalent because they feel it gives that less 'clean', more 'avin' it, sound. I can definately say that on my system, I find that techno can sound a bit too clean with all the sounds distinct and not too engaging... until you rack it up that is

Edit: out of interest, I'm using a Nait5i amp.

 

[Geordie]

My system (see sig) does PRaT by the bucketload. It makes dance music sound far better than a system that cant do it, and yet, it doesnt sound lean particularly either, plenty of bottom end.

I dont agree its just down to emphasised mid bass response, its the whole thing. Music just sounds more convincing full stop to my ears with good PRaT.

I would ALWAYS recommend "PRATTY" systems to listen to techno and trance as it sounds much more involving.

 

[Gaffer]

182-Geordie wrote:

My system (see sig) does PRaT by the bucketload. It makes dance music sound far better than a system that cant do it, and yet, it doesnt sound lean particularly either, plenty of bottom end.I dont agree its just down to emphasised mid bass response, its the whole thing. Music just sounds more convincing full stop to my ears with good PRaT.

I would ALWAYS recommend "PRATTY" systems to listen to techno and trance as it sounds much more involving.

I agree with Geordie, I don't think PRaT is due to accentuating any specific part of the frequency.

(....but f*** me if i can explain what does cause it though

)

 

[Davewhityetagain]

no such thing as prat other than one I know who owns a hi fi company

what you get from good hi fi systems is good music that you like, goodkit nice sound

stuff the names that people make up

your hi fi sounds good or crap end of story, if its good you listen if not you change (in theory) this will make you happy

set up kit put on cd tuner or deck turn it up

if you like it keep on

or

if it sounds :td:say like a turntable via an av amp and sub

start again till you get

 

[Gaffer]

yeah, that's a really good way of seeing it.

I can listen to system 1 for days on end....so much so that it's difficult to turn it off sometimes (and I can continue on through the early hours).

System 2 - I am able to switch off after 10 minutes (not 'cos it sounds bad, just 'cos it doesn't sound effing AMAZING to my ears)

 

[Geordie]

Cant say I agree theres no such thing as PRAT, unless i am imagining it, a lot of fast paced music definitely seems to have more get up and go on some systems than other, and its nothing to do with frequency response. This type of music on such systems simply sounds more snappy and faster.

 

[Gaffer]

There's the "head bobbulation effect" though.

my setup has it in spades

 

[Boxer]

IMO/IME, as an Expo owner, even though the amp has given way to a Krell, I always thought Expo/Densen etc were a better prospect than Naim, as Naim seem to hang everything on the leading edge of notes & can ignore the rest, & have a tendency to reduce everything to a fast 4/4.

PRaT also, to me, means that slow stuff stays slow, mid-paced stuff stays mid-paced, etc, as well as fast stuff being suitably fast.

Expo, Densen, Krell, Bow (having recently heard Umberto's Wizard 2 with my Krell - speed: I should coco!), and others all offer a more realistic, to my ears, representation of timing in music than I've ever heard Naim kit do.

That's why I'm sometimes critical of Naim, although I am not always.

Boxer

 

[SSM]

boxer wrote:

IMO/IME, as an Expo owner, even though the amp has given way to a Krell, I always thought Expo/Densen etc were a better prospect than Naim, as Naim seem to hang everything on the leading edge of notes & can ignore the rest, & have a tendency to reduce everything to a fast 4/4.PRaT also, to me, means that slow stuff stays slow, mid-paced stuff stays mid-paced, etc, as well as fast stuff being suitably fast.

Expo, Densen, Krell, Bow (having recently heard Umberto's Wizard 2 with my Krell - speed: I should coco!), and others all offer a more realistic, to my ears, representation of timing in music than I've ever heard Naim kit do.

That's why I'm sometimes critical of Naim, although I am not always.

Boxer

I too believe that, all the high-end boys aside, its Densen and exposureTM that do PRaT very well in the affordable sector. Naim is artificial imho and tonally coloured, that's why its not the first choice for classical music buffs.

IME the PRaT quotient one can elicit from a particular setup is a result of the equation between amp, speaker cable and speaker. If into this equation you put a component that is comparatively slow or lacking in speed, you will curtail the resulting PRaT. Sources seem to have less effect. A Marantz CD-7300 I had was "slow" (as always with budget Marantz cdps)when heard through MF amplification. But its drag was covered up when the amp and speakers were changed to PRaTier components.

So yeah, I'm a believer in PRaT.

SS

 

[Geordie]

Its not just Densen, Naim and Exposure that do PRAT affordably. Rega does it too, Ion, Creek, Onix, even Rotel....

 

[Geordie]

Its not just Densen, Naim and Exposure that do PRAT affordably. Rega does it too, Ion, Creek, Onix, even Rotel....

 

[Johnboi]

Boxer said:

IMO/IME, as an Expo owner, even though the amp has given way to a Krell, I always thought Expo/Densen etc were a better prospect than Naim, as Naim seem to hang everything on the leading edge of notes & can ignore the rest, & have a tendency to reduce everything to a fast 4/4.PRaT also, to me, means that slow stuff stays slow, mid-paced stuff stays mid-paced, etc, as well as fast stuff being suitably fast.

Expo, Densen, Krell, Bow (having recently heard Umberto's Wizard 2 with my Krell - speed: I should coco!), and others all offer a more realistic, to my ears, representation of timing in music than I've ever heard Naim kit do.

That's why I'm sometimes critical of Naim, although I am not always.

Boxer

Excellent points, and I totally agree. My pure digital Sony amp doesn't have quite the leading edge 'attack' re transients of my Naim kit, and hence doesn't give fast paced music quite that 4/4 time sense of 'drive', BUT it can play 'slower' when the music is 'slow' and play 'faster' when the music is 'fast' than the Naim, and consequently is much more believable overall in terms of musical expression, across a broad range of musical genres, when the reference is live music, as against other HiFi kit, which is the only 'real' reference, IMHO.

Best

John..:dude:

 

[9designs]

Hmmmm amazing no one has mentioned the most musical and tuneful, and I guess PRat capable systems, a system that is designed and audition using a "tune" method which picks out the best timing and rhythm !! But perhaps unlike the Naim's mid rangeor leading edge "coloration" or aggression is designed to be"Pitch accurate"

You need togo North to Scotland and go see LINN !!!!

The latest stuff keeps their tradition of timing and rhythm, but now has natural uncoloured sound, where by early stuff sometimes had it's own signature.

The masters of foot tapping performance, and not fussy on the music you choose !!

 

[murray johnson]

The system Linn played at Bristol this year certainly wasn't fussy about the music put through it. It sounded shite with everything!

 

[Umberto]

murray johnson wrote:

The system Linn played at Bristol this year certainly wasn't fussy about the music put through it. It sounded shite with everything!

The Linn dem at the Glasgow show was ok in 2:1 but poor in 7:1.

 

[curtis]

murray johnson wrote:

The system Linn played at Bristol this year certainly wasn't fussy about the music put through it. It sounded shite with everything!

Ive noticed this chap ole Murrykins does not mince his words:clout:

Unfortunately last high end Linn setup i heard also fell short

The makes mentioned certainly have speed fluency and timing without the flat and coloured sound of a Naim system.

Still if Naim does it for you nothing else will do

Curtis

 

[9designs]

Doesn't every system sound shite at a show !?!?!?!

Some how I expected a band wagon comment, as it seems popular to slate Linn these days... funny how they remain in business if were true !!!

Sound ok in 2:1 and not in 7:1 .... is that a comment on Linn or 7:1 systems in general ??

Interestingly I off to a Naim (plus others)musical evening tonight.... see if I come a back converted

 

[curtis]

9designs wrote:

Doesn't every system sound shite at a show !?!?!?!Some how I expected a band wagon comment, as it seems popular to slate Linn these days... funny how they remain in business if were true !!!

Sound ok in 2:1 and not in 7:1 .... is that a comment on Linn or 7:1 systems in general ??

Interestingly I off to a Naim (plus others)musical evening tonight.... see if I come a back converted

Sorry bud not knocking Linn at all

I was not at a show but in a dem room with the Linn dealer and as impressed as he was about it all it was just harsh an analytical to these ears

No romance or sould whatsoever

Not saying thats the case for all Linn gear and certainly like the sound of the LP12 but would not go for a full Linn system to OTT for me

Curtis