Are Sugden Class A?
They are Class A. Sugden sound sublime with Proac Speakers.
Are Sugden Class A?
I wonder how the soft dome tweeter d2 compares .i just adored it at shows .its on my demo list but curently got ar6 here which would be very similar to d2 i think but they have soft dome tweeterBeen demoing some D2R for the last couple of days.
For reference, this is in a 12 x 14ft ish room, with bay window, 8.5ft ceilings. Main bedroom of a Victorian terraced house.
Driven by an Arcam SA30 (I appreciate the speakers would scale with better electronics).
Previous favourites in this room were Spendor Classic 3/1 - pretty much ideal, but just a bit too much bass on a lot of modern music. And on more raw music, maybe their silky, forgiving nature could be a tad too polite.
ATC SCM11 are my other favourite speaker; lively, fast, tonally decent, detailed, ease of placement, engaging. Occasionally forward in the upper mids on certain tracks, but perhaps that's just down to the recording. A different set of virtues to the Spendors, but with some similarities, and certainly more room friendly.
Previous Spendor Classic 4/5s were lovely, but the lack of a scale and punch was a deal breaker in the end. Maybe however, they are the easiest to live with of all speakers I've tried, notwithstanding the lack of excitement.
I expected the D2rs to have too much bass, akin to the Spendor 3/1. But they are just about perfect in that department. Well integrated, nice weight, fairly quick. Only rarely, on the most boisterous of recordings do they get too much. I guess that demonstrates the virtue of front ported vs rear ported. Even close to the rear wall they do well. The ATCs are a little quicker and punchier.
Mids are nice and natural. Surprisingly though, the ATCs in direct comparison, are more open, more detailed, and slightly smoother.
All fairly good so far...but the treble. Regardless of positioning tweaks, they seem too forward. The treble is very well integrated with the mids, but on any modern or poorly recorded music, they're bright and a challenge to listen to. At least to these ears. It's an open, extended and refined treble, but somewhat accentuated. I dare say there can be a slight edge too (they are a well run in demo pair).
What I didn't expect, is that they seem brighter, more forward and less refined than the ATCs. Given that the ribbon tweeter is their usp, this came as a surprise.
Most of all, they are double the price of the ATC, which seems so wrong when weighing them up in direct comparison.
I realise you can't have it all though. If I could take the bass quantity of the D2R, the forgiving nature of the Spendor 3/1, the pace and detail of the ATC SCM11, and the small size of the Spendor 4/5, all would be well 😂
Not sure whether to persevere or not. Part of me thinks my ears just need to adjust to the new presentation of the higher frequencies. Maybe I am used to particularly smooth soeakers (Spendor). It's about the best compromise at the end of the day.
The other part of me thinks it's crazy to even consider them unless they delight straight away.
Anyway, rant over, but any comments gladly welcomed.
I wouldn't dismiss Japanese amps. I chose one over the usual British suspects for my Studio 150s. It was just much better.I'm looking for suggestions for a solid state amp for Proac Tablette 10 speakers. Budget is £500 - £1000. Considering Rega Elex r, Musical Fidelity M2si, Roksan Kandy 3 or Naim Nait 5si but open any other ideas..
Hi great write up. I found some similar things as you when I did my standmount mega shootout thread. Summary comparison half way down this page. https://www.hifiwigwam.com/threads/stand-mount-mega-shootout.102716/page-15I I listened to three of the smaller Proacs and several other brands and ended up buying the ATC SCM11. I was advised not to listen to the ribbon version and so just listened to the dome one. I found that compared to the ATC the treble was more extended but never fatiguing. But I found the bass to be flabby compared to the ATC. And like you found many speakers had great virtues but every speaker wasn’t the best at everything.Well...I gave them some more time...and ended up ordering a pair! Although my bank account now hates me. 😬
They really got under my skin with further listening. Unlike the ATCs I had back on demo (and countless other speakers previously), the Proacs just made me want to listen more. There's a level of engagement, both emotionally and visceralously, that they stir up.
By comparison, I admired the ATCs. On paper, they make the most sense (for their control, detail, speed, neutrality, room friendly bass, value for money), but they never left me wanting to listen more. And they could sound a bit lacking in natural warmth, or uptight at times.
Previous Spendor Classic 3/1 (having too much bass aside), were lovely. Relaxing, tonally correct, forgiving, inpactful, detailed, coherant...but often lacked a bit of air or insight on darker recordings, and their forgiving, silky treble could make raunchier music too polite. But the overriding issue was too much bass in my room.
Yes, the Proacs are more revealing, and not always forgiving. But the other side of that, is that they give fantastic insight into intricate tracks, instruments or small details, which reels you in. Good recordings, particularly of an acoustic variety can sound stunning.
The goldilocks principle then comes in, by backing up their incisiveness, with a warm, respectfully tight and flowing bass, and clean and slightly relaxed midrange. So as an overall presentation, they're really addictive, and dare I say it, 'natural'.
Then other smaller considerations sealed the deal:
-Not aesthetically massive, and just about get past my girlfriend (the hifi shares our main bedroom! Against the wall when not in use)
- look lovely in Walnut finish. Classically handsome, especially with the grilles on.
- look good on the Solidsteel Ss6 stands and tweeters correct height for ears.
- front ported, and seem to react a lot less with room, compared to the Spendor Classic 3/1 of similar spec, albeit rear ported.
- They sound good with my Arcam SA30. But it's nice knowing that exploring Sugden, Croft or valves in the future (funds permitting) will be something to strive towards in future - I'm guessing that would increase the forgiving- ness too.
I guess it all comes down to compromise. All of the above speakers will sound best on certain tracks, or be most room friendly for a particular track. But taken as a whole, across the spectrum of music, I think the Proacs both excite and engage the most, while fitting in aesthetically.
Will post photos when they arrive.
There is a very cheap pair of dt8 at a local dealer , quite tempting to buy and have a listen .i have no idea why they dont sell at 1495 which seems cheap enough to me . Perhaps too many comments on hard to control bass ?
Hi great write up. I found some similar things as you when I did my standmount mega shootout thread. Summary comparison half way down this page. https://www.hifiwigwam.com/threads/stand-mount-mega-shootout.102716/page-15I I listened to three of the smaller Proacs and several other brands and ended up buying the ATC SCM11. I was advised not to listen to the ribbon version and so just listened to the dome one. I found that compared to the ATC the treble was more extended but never fatiguing. But I found the bass to be flabby compared to the ATC. And like you found many speakers had great virtues but every speaker wasn’t the best at everything.
I have some ribbon tweeters on a pair of temporary Neat Iota Alphas and had to be very careful of the signal chain so can understand why you have gone in a different direction. I have a pair of P3ESR originals that I use in a second system and they work very well. Speakers are such a personal thing but the Harbeths should work well in your room based on size. I know that my Harbeths don’t go very low BUT the things that they do well they do very well and more than make up for the lack of bass. Hope that you love them.Thanks, yes I followed your speaker comparison posts with interest!
The SCM11s are a great speaker for sure.
I was surprised the D2R worked in my room, bass wise. They've been absolutely fine. For context, I could never get the Kef Ls50 Meta to sound decent, as there was always room interaction.
Unfortunately, with the D2R, they've not quite worked out. I was set them on after the long home demo. They're so good in many ways. But with extended listening, I've gone off them more and more. I just find them a bit too forward, too often.
The treble is smooth and airy, tactile, fast and detailed. It's not etched or unnatural. But because the mids are slightly recessed and the high treble is quite lifted, it can draw attention to itself at times. I listen to a lot of poorly recorded stuff on Qoboz or Tidal, which only exacerbates the problem. But crucially, I've found myself avoiding large parts of my music collection. And it was that point, which finally made me realise I was forcing myself to like them.
I want to be engaged by a speaker...but also be able to relax, and, play most music without feeling uptight. I noticed often that I felt on edge when listening to the Proacs.
Anyway, long story short, I've spent time demoing the Harbeth P3esr XD, and really fallen for it.
They're also detailed, open and incisive, and but without overdoing it. Whereas my old Spendor 4/5 were 'nice' and silky sounding in the highs, but lacked some excitement. I think the Harbeths tread the line between brightness and dullness very well. So brightness is kept in check (unlike Falcons and Proac Tablette 10 signature IMO that I've demoed), and they couple that with a really natural and engaging midband, with a slight tonal warmth.
Bass is what surprised me the most. Notably fuller sounding than my old Spendor 4/5, yet just as agile. The Spendors also sounded slightly hollow and woody.
Yeah they still don't go deep, but in my 12x14ft room, they do the job suitably well. Maybe in the future I'll add a sub if I ever feel the need. They are also really room friendly and able to be moved around to other rooms if needs be.
The key word I kept writing down in my listening notes was 'engaging'. And that really sealed it for me.
The dealer has been very patient and understanding, so I will be switching over to the Harbeths. While I could shop around second hand (as it's a lot of money for such a small speaker!), it feels fairer to the dealer after their patience and generosity they've shown with arranging multiple home demos etc. And if it brings musical enjoyment daily, it's worth the cost.
My sentiments too Dom. Love small monitors done well. They make me smile a few times a day. Priceless.I know that my Harbeths don’t go very low BUT the things that they do well they do very well and more than make up for the lack of bass. Hope that you love them.
Had some D2R here for a while. Very nice speakers.
They loaded my space just right with the volume levels I listen at. I haven't owned a sub for some time, so having some body to the music was a pleasant change.
So much so that I ordered some. 👀 Chickened out on the D2R and chose the silk dome tweeter version that I am familiar with.
Looking forward to receiving them, but not having to run them in.
A mate of mine had one of those then upgraded to theI wouldn't dismiss Japanese amps. I chose one over the usual British suspects for my Studio 150s. It was just much better.
Denon PMA 1600ne.
Hmmm, not sure it's the best time, ecomically to be going over to Class A 😏 It would just give me consumer guilt... 😂They are Class A. Sugden sound sublime with Proac Speakers.
Understand that dilemma.A mate of mine had one of those then upgraded to the
Hmmm, not sure it's the best time, ecomically to be going over to Class A 😏 It would just give me consumer guilt... 😂
Im actually moving away from a Class A tube amp that went t*ts up last week.(again). But I had been wondering about the running cost of it anyhow. I'm done with tubes I'm afraid.Understand that dilemma.
Just cut back on other things until it can be justified ?
I've come back to class A and I forgot just how good it was & also how much more engaged I am with music.
Don't think my amp had a standby mode. It was just on.....i run 2 F5 monoblocks which are on standby when not on. doesnt affect electric too much . the dishwasher is 10 times more expensive to run !!
I was a little bit concerned..then I realised what you (might) mean.Can we see some nudes please?