QUAD ESL 63 Room positioning
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Try to find the XLO Test CD, there are tracks for positioning the speakers in your room. It works very well.
Carefully!
There is little torsional strength in the structure and it's important to avoid twisting the ESL casing.
Original or replacement boxes from Quad would be best, but if not then I'd suggest placing them flat and very well cushioned for transport.
Incidentally, Peter Walker didn't recommend tweaks to strengthen the ESL structure, or mount them more rigidly. The structure is deliberately a little lossy. Increasing the rigidity causes bass peaking because both the 57 and 63 have a natural free air panel resonance at LF and you want to minimise it's Q.
Later versions of the design introduced after Quad were sold have received a somewhat mixed reception - all after the 988/989 try to make the structure more rigid.
Well I've got a pair of 63s now, but all is not quite well. I went away just after getting them so it's only now that I've had a chance to properly test what seemed not quite right when I first set them up. Basically one of the speakers is outputting less than the other. I'm guessing that a bass panel on one speaker isn't working, but I don't hear any hiss or noise. Does anyone know of a way of testing the panels?
Hi Andrew,
Sorry to hear these aren't working as you'd wish.
FWIW uneven output is exactly the symptom I had with OTA serviced panels, and it's why I now only recommend Quad service. They started out ok and lost output over time.
However, remember that the 63s output the same front and back, so if the 63s are positioned differently in the room wrt to boundaries and stuff behind them , this can impact output considerably. Try experimenting by pulling both well into the centre of the room and then compare the output.
It should be possible to hear the individual panels up close. if faulty, they'll likely still be working but with uneven output.
Yes I originally put it down to room issues and not understanding how stats work in space, since I have a lot more stuff behind the left speaker than the right. So I thought that I'd come back to the problem in a week or so and start shifting things about after I'd returned from my short holiday.
However I've now done the much simpler experiment of switching the speakers around and it is clearly not the stuff behind the left positioned speaker that is the problem. I get more output from the left side if I switch the speakers around.
I'm not sure what to do. I think that the 63s have great potential in my room, even though I've got to say I don't like the look of them. Quad servicing has a 12 week waiting list at the moment! I could pick up another recently serviced pair if I could sell these on for someone who doesn't mind a bit of DIY.
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By the way, by uneven output, do you mean occasionally full output and sometimes compromised, or uneven output between the panels. I mean can a panel work sometimes and not at other times?
However I've now done the much simpler experiment of switching the speakers around and it is clearly not the stuff behind the left positioned speaker that is the problem. I get more output from the left side if I switch the speakers around.
I'm not sure what to do. I think that the 63s have great potential in my room, even though I've got to say I don't like the look of them. Quad servicing has a 12 week waiting list at the moment! I could pick up another recently serviced pair if I could sell these on for someone who doesn't mind a bit of DIY.
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By the way, by uneven output, do you mean occasionally full output and sometimes compromised, or uneven output between the panels. I mean can a panel work sometimes and not at other times?
I mean permanently down in level. I've heard of one instance where a channel has suffered intermittent fault due to failure of cap C14 which is a 1.5uf 100v cap added by Quad after initial production to make the impedance spec look a little better. It was added to satisfy pesky reviewers and you can safely remove it. It's located on the main board in the base of the 63.
Worth a look to see if yours have it, and it could be a very cheap fix. Obviously remove it from both.
Otherwise, new panels or flip them.
Thanks Rob. I'm not quite confident to mess around with the board but I suspect a new panel is going to be needed. I've been recommended a guy called Henry Dulat for doing Quad repairs and he is nearby. However I could just bite the bullet and take them to Quad. The waiting list is about 12 weeks, but I guess at least I'd know they would be sorted and I'd have something to look forward to. I'm driving up to Leicester today to collect a delightful revolving platter so I may just drop them off in Huntingdon on the way.
Hope you went for the Quad option; well worth the wait. I picked up mine on Friday (8th).
Just plonk'em down and enjoy:^
atb.
Ronnie.
Sadly a 12 weeks wait from Quad, but at least I have Simon's Omega Point 5 to keep me happy! (Still not set up due to visitors, but finally free tomorrow)
They're back! Completely serviced by Quad and sounding great. They are everything I hoped for, except for one problem.... I am getting boom, down at the bottom of the register of an upright bass, so I guess around 50-60Hz. I have a room mode at 60Hz, and from what I have read the 63s have a peak there, so I guess that is where the problem lies.
I have not tweaked the positioning yet. I have some castors on order so when they arrive I will start wheeling the speakers around to try and get rid of the boom. I will also have to clear away the space behind the speakers.
This is the current situation:
As you can see from the pictures below, I have a lot of stuff behind the speakers, which I need to clear.
I've installed some large cushions in the vain hope of catching a bit of bass;
A bit of a mess! I need to look into room treatment options.
As it is, the bass boom is a significant problem, but if I can manage to solve it, then you can stick a fork in me...
I have not tweaked the positioning yet. I have some castors on order so when they arrive I will start wheeling the speakers around to try and get rid of the boom. I will also have to clear away the space behind the speakers.
This is the current situation:
As you can see from the pictures below, I have a lot of stuff behind the speakers, which I need to clear.
I've installed some large cushions in the vain hope of catching a bit of bass;
A bit of a mess! I need to look into room treatment options.
As it is, the bass boom is a significant problem, but if I can manage to solve it, then you can stick a fork in me...
Hi Andrew, glad you have them back and are pleased with them.
if you download the "room equalisation wizard" software, available free from "Home Theatre Shack", it has a nifty room simulator which can speed up finding the best position to ameliorate that bass boom. Room treatment is a good way of finding a solution if you can accept the look of it.
another possibility is some form of digital room correction to the lower frequencies, Meridian include it in some of their kit and I believe Big Dur sells a box that has a similar effect. The great advantage of this approach is that you can accommodate larger speakers than your room size could otherwise cope with and in a position that suits you and more to the point your speaker - critical for a dipole.
if you download the "room equalisation wizard" software, available free from "Home Theatre Shack", it has a nifty room simulator which can speed up finding the best position to ameliorate that bass boom. Room treatment is a good way of finding a solution if you can accept the look of it.
another possibility is some form of digital room correction to the lower frequencies, Meridian include it in some of their kit and I believe Big Dur sells a box that has a similar effect. The great advantage of this approach is that you can accommodate larger speakers than your room size could otherwise cope with and in a position that suits you and more to the point your speaker - critical for a dipole.
Great stuff!
So glad to hear that apart from the bass boom, they are sounding as good as you had hoped, Andrew. I would imagine that with some experimentation with positioning, cmoving the stuff behind the speakers and/or a couple of bass traps, you'll be able to reduce the boom. Remember that the bass also eminates from the top panels as well as the bottom ones, so reflection of bass from the top panels is also a consideration.
So glad to hear that apart from the bass boom, they are sounding as good as you had hoped, Andrew. I would imagine that with some experimentation with positioning, cmoving the stuff behind the speakers and/or a couple of bass traps, you'll be able to reduce the boom. Remember that the bass also eminates from the top panels as well as the bottom ones, so reflection of bass from the top panels is also a consideration.
Thanks Malcolm, I'll download that room software and try and work something out.
Gary, I am wondering about bass traps, although I didn't know if they were appropriate for stats or not. There are a couple for sale on here which I was considering trying. As you can see, it will be a bit awkward freeing up the corners. I've got most of my records elsewhere, but the big problem is finding room for the cd shelves. I wish I could make the move to computer audio solely for that reason, but I'm just not ready yet.
Gary, I am wondering about bass traps, although I didn't know if they were appropriate for stats or not. There are a couple for sale on here which I was considering trying. As you can see, it will be a bit awkward freeing up the corners. I've got most of my records elsewhere, but the big problem is finding room for the cd shelves. I wish I could make the move to computer audio solely for that reason, but I'm just not ready yet.
Funnily enough, I had thought about mentioning those same bass traps that are up for sale on here. As to whether they would be suitable for stats, I would think that if the bass hump is a room acoustics issue, they would be suitable regardless of speaker used. If, however, it's emanating at the speaker, some sort of EQ would probably be of benefit. The other thing is that the sound may change as the new panels/components bed in, seeing as they've only just been refurbed. I've just been looking back at old online reviews, as I was sure I'd read that the 63's have a hump in the lower frequencies and I came across this feedback from a customer of OTA :
Salvatore Sacca: Steve/Ron, Sometimes funny things happen. When I received your “line-equalisers”, I was eager to try them. Woke up early Sunday morning, hooked them up to the speakers, turned the system on and….Whamm!! All of s sudden the image heightened, there was more “air” between the instruments, the high frequencies looked like kind of smoother. I’d say “silkier”, but without losing impact and lightening-fast transient response. Moreover, a very annoying boominess in the 80-90 Hz region – partly due to the amp, partly due to the CD player, and partly to as room mode resonance – well, I can’t say it disappeared, but became tighter and more tuneful.
We’re talking about clearly audible differences, the kind you experience, for instance, when you eventually get the “right” cable, and the change was definitely for the better.
Since you had called the thing “line-equaliser” I thought it was supposed to do exactly that, to wit, gently “equalise” some minor irregularities in the speakers’ response. Now, fast forward to Sunday night, when I checked my emails, got your response and…..well, I leant that the thing was supposed to address a totally different kind of problem – which I happen not to have – and “by chance” solved the peaks at 90 Hz and at 12 kHz, with a slight and gentle rise at 13.5 kHz: which happens to be distinctly what I heard. Well guys, if you really got this result by chance, you are very lucky; on the other hand, if you – as I’m more inclined to think – did it purposely, this is another proof that you know your job very, very well; in both cases, you have a very, very good product, and I can easily say that my system sounds BETTER with the little wonder plugged in.
That said, since you warned me that the results might be system-dependent, I spent last week playing around with a couple of amps I have at hand. Besides the VAC PA45 which I currently use, I tried the Bedini 25/25 and the glorious – really glorious – Quad 11; I am arranging an audition with the PASS ALEPH 3 too, but couldn’t try it yet. Well, I noticed the same differences in all three set-ups. This thing’s definitely a winner. .
Finally, do you know the reason why, for Christ’s sake, people keep on driving these speakers with solid-state behemoths? The other day, listening to the Quad 11/ ESL combo, I thought that, really, they don’t do them like they used to any more: in 50 years, all we got is a backwards move, not forward.
With my warmest regards, Salvatore.
The notes on the Widget can be found here http://www.onethingaudio.webspace.virginmedia.com/OTA/9152-OTA-MAIN.htm . I don't know if it corrects a bass hump, just that it does some EQing, to `improve' on the measurements of stock 63's.
Hopefully, your experimentation will solve your bass hump, but in case it doesn't, I thought it worth mentioning the widget, as a call to OTA would probably uncover whether or not it changes the bass frequenct curve or not.
Another alternative would be some kind of DSP EQing, which would be useful if you do decide at a later stage to go the seperate woofer/x-over route.
Salvatore Sacca: Steve/Ron, Sometimes funny things happen. When I received your “line-equalisers”, I was eager to try them. Woke up early Sunday morning, hooked them up to the speakers, turned the system on and….Whamm!! All of s sudden the image heightened, there was more “air” between the instruments, the high frequencies looked like kind of smoother. I’d say “silkier”, but without losing impact and lightening-fast transient response. Moreover, a very annoying boominess in the 80-90 Hz region – partly due to the amp, partly due to the CD player, and partly to as room mode resonance – well, I can’t say it disappeared, but became tighter and more tuneful.
We’re talking about clearly audible differences, the kind you experience, for instance, when you eventually get the “right” cable, and the change was definitely for the better.
Since you had called the thing “line-equaliser” I thought it was supposed to do exactly that, to wit, gently “equalise” some minor irregularities in the speakers’ response. Now, fast forward to Sunday night, when I checked my emails, got your response and…..well, I leant that the thing was supposed to address a totally different kind of problem – which I happen not to have – and “by chance” solved the peaks at 90 Hz and at 12 kHz, with a slight and gentle rise at 13.5 kHz: which happens to be distinctly what I heard. Well guys, if you really got this result by chance, you are very lucky; on the other hand, if you – as I’m more inclined to think – did it purposely, this is another proof that you know your job very, very well; in both cases, you have a very, very good product, and I can easily say that my system sounds BETTER with the little wonder plugged in.
That said, since you warned me that the results might be system-dependent, I spent last week playing around with a couple of amps I have at hand. Besides the VAC PA45 which I currently use, I tried the Bedini 25/25 and the glorious – really glorious – Quad 11; I am arranging an audition with the PASS ALEPH 3 too, but couldn’t try it yet. Well, I noticed the same differences in all three set-ups. This thing’s definitely a winner. .
Finally, do you know the reason why, for Christ’s sake, people keep on driving these speakers with solid-state behemoths? The other day, listening to the Quad 11/ ESL combo, I thought that, really, they don’t do them like they used to any more: in 50 years, all we got is a backwards move, not forward.
With my warmest regards, Salvatore.
The notes on the Widget can be found here http://www.onethingaudio.webspace.virginmedia.com/OTA/9152-OTA-MAIN.htm . I don't know if it corrects a bass hump, just that it does some EQing, to `improve' on the measurements of stock 63's.
Hopefully, your experimentation will solve your bass hump, but in case it doesn't, I thought it worth mentioning the widget, as a call to OTA would probably uncover whether or not it changes the bass frequenct curve or not.
Another alternative would be some kind of DSP EQing, which would be useful if you do decide at a later stage to go the seperate woofer/x-over route.
Hi Andrew - I think you should oik out the empty white storage unit. Probably a long shot: but a 1ft square port, 1ft long with a 5 cu ft box is tuned to 60Hz. I have no idea how you could possibley have 5 cu ft behind them but maybe a 1 cu ft leaky box has similar properties - and you have 4 of them!
Worth a try?
Worth a try?
I had the same thought, either that or fill it with something that might absorb the sound (could even stuff it with sound absorbent material like rockwool and cover the front with something acoustically transparent!).
Interesting thoughts, Gary and Dave, thanks.
I did do some shuffling about earlier. I got the porty-porrigy cubes out of the right hand corner. Then I emptied the records out of the left hand corner and took out that unit. Still some oozing goo (not exactly porridge - I don't think it's quite the same).
Then I brought the 63s a little closer together and toed them in less, so they weren't firing backwards into the corners. Some improvement here.
[...my waffling about amps has been edited out here...]
Actually it's sounding good as I type. More listening .... less typing.
I did do some shuffling about earlier. I got the porty-porrigy cubes out of the right hand corner. Then I emptied the records out of the left hand corner and took out that unit. Still some oozing goo (not exactly porridge - I don't think it's quite the same).
Then I brought the 63s a little closer together and toed them in less, so they weren't firing backwards into the corners. Some improvement here.
[...my waffling about amps has been edited out here...]
Actually it's sounding good as I type. More listening .... less typing.
G
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Worth persevering with.
I'd recommend corner bass traps for sure.
And maybe some acoustic panels.
But then I'd recommend acoustic treatment to anyone.
It makes a big diffrence.
I'd recommend corner bass traps for sure.
And maybe some acoustic panels.
But then I'd recommend acoustic treatment to anyone.
It makes a big diffrence.
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