Room/speaker setup advisers?

[DWJames]

Hi all,

do most hifi places have a room setup/installation guy who's an expert in helping you to get the most out of your kit once you've got it home? Specifically in regards to speaker positioning and room layout. And if so, is it normal that they would be open to coming and setting up a system that they haven't sold, for a reasonable fee?

This might seem like a really basic question, but what I have now is my first 'proper' hifi and it's been put together with old stuff I've either bought cheap or rescued/refurbed/built up myself. I've had basicaly nothing to do with dedicated hifi shops and the services they provide.

Why do I ask?

I have a very modified CD player with nice tweaks to include a valve output stage, good Yamaha Pre and Power amps (C-4 and PC2002M) and a pair of KEF 104.2 speakers. All sited in my office/music room/man cave. To my untrained ears, it sounds nice, clean, powerful and detailed. But there's something about the stereo imaging I can't quite get to click. I've heard people describe the very centre image as 'snapping into focus' when they get it right, but I just can't quite get it. I feel like it's very close, but not quite right somehow.

I have fairly free reign over positioning, I have a copy of REW with a Behringer room mic I've had a quick play with and I've even made myself some sound deadening panels, but my problem lies in my lack of experience of what's possible and of learning to listen analytically.

I've always loved music, but somehow, I've gone 35 years of my life without actually sitting down infront of a really good hifi, being sat in the sweet spot and feeling totally immersed in the sound.

Having a fairly free reign with speaker positioning gives me a very wide range of available speaker placements. I've checked the recommendations from KEF as well as reading through the various speaker placement guides on the net and they all agree that good positioning makes a huge difference to the sound, but they also come out with different/conflicting places. Some wildly different. A lot of the guides are generic. I guess they have to be.

I feel that I'd really benefit from someone with good experience of room setup and speaker positioning and sound treatment to give their input for a couple of hours. Someone who's done this a hundred times before, who can come in and say "ahh, large, front ported floorstanders, solid walls, vaulted ceiling. In my experience, that works best this way round" or "It's set right, but this is as good as you're going to get without also doing X or Y"

I know I could get there myself given enough time, but I run a busy business, have 2 kids and an overflowing list of other jobs that need doing so if spending a few quid to cover a couple of hours of someone's time means I can spend less of my precious spare time shuffling things about and more time enjoying my music, I'd consider that a good investment.

Which is all a long-winded, roundabout way of saying: Can anyone recommend someone in the Hereford/Gloucester/Ross-on-Wye area with good experience of speaker/room setups who could help me get this right? I'm happy to cover the costs of someone's travel and pay for their time if it helps get the right results. I'm also happy to do all the lugging around of heavy speakers and such. Maybe a few hours of an evening?

thanks,

James

 

[hifinutt]

any pics so people can advise ?

I know of one London dealer who goes to folks homes but others may know more

 

[manicatel]

A few tips....

The "triangle" formed by the 2 speakers & the listening seat is very important for imaging. Making sure you are central between the speakers & ideally have nothing between the speakers, ie tv screen, equipment rack, etc & nothing between you & the speakers, such as coffee tables etc. Toe-ing the speakers in/ out in small movements will also make a difference. Try starting with the tweeters pointed straight at you so that they converge right where your chair is.

The sound treatment panels should be placed at the 1st (& ideally 2nd) reflection points. You can find these easily by sitting in your chair & getting a helper to run a mirror along the wall at tweeter height until you can see the reflection of the speaker. Mark these points on the wall & place the panels there. Any reflections in the room, from hard furniture, Walls, ceilings, windows will disturb the imaging, so if a strong image is #1 priority for you, try to minimise room reflections, so that you are getting the sound from the speakers, & not getting secondary sounds being bounced off reflective surfaces. Curtains, cushions, even experimenting with duvets/sleeping bags etc placed at likely problem points may help, even if your room will temporarily look like a bombs hit it & everyone else will think you've gone bonkers. But hey, it's a cheap/ free way to experiment. The measurement kit can be useful, but unless you know how to interpret & use the info it gives you, it won't be the total solution.

Worst case scenario is that your speakers just don't do imaging strongly enough for your tastes & you are hoping for too much, but good set up will probably get you a sweet spot you'll be happy with.

Sorry, I know all that's a bit diy & not really answering the main query of a dealer reccommendation, but I'm not in your neck of the woods.

Hope you get there!

Matt.

 

[Leonard Smalls]

Making sure you are central between the speakers & ideally have nothing between the speakers, ie tv screen, equipment rack, etc & nothing between you & the speakers, such as coffee tables etc.

There are certain compromises you should never make, and one is to have nowhere to put your wine glass/pint of beer/tumbler of Bruichladdich.

Any of these will make a musical experience more immersive!

 

[Jelly Tussle]

There are certain compromises you should never make, and one is to have nowhere to put your wine glass/pint of beer/tumbler of Bruichladdich.Any of these will make a musical experience more immersive!

Agreed :^

But if you are drinking Bruichladdich; don't use a tumbler. Use a Brandy glass or ideally a whisky tasting glass.

Swirl, savour aroma and sip.

If you don't have the correct accessories; your Hi-Fi will never sound right....

 

[leenorris78]

If you feel they sound nearly right are they at the same height?

I found with Proac that when I measured the front and back of the speaker they were about 5mm out. Getting them perfectly at the same height made good into great.

Good luck!

 

[DWJames]

Thanks Guys

I'll get some pictures up shortly to explain what I'm dealing with and where I'm at.

 

[mmar]

James I've owned a number of kefs including some of the early versions 104 and 107 and to be perfectly honest imaging isn't one of their strong points , raising the speakers on plinths is the only way I could get acceptable decent imaging , without raising the speakers the tweeters sit far too low in relation to ear level , if you get chance give one of the later uni q kef reference series speakers a try , while some prefer the tonality of the older kefs there is no question the later versions with the uni q drivers are far better in respect to imaging

 

[awkwardbydesign]

Agreed, some speakers just don't do imaging well. Personally I always like to have the tweeters ABOVE ear height. it seems to work for me. YMMV.

 

[DWJames]

Thanks Guys,

I've had a shuffle about yesterday and re-done some of my measurements to square things up a little and it's definitely better now.

The KEF manual states to position "about 1m from the nearest side wall and 50cm from the back wall with between 2 and 4 metres spacing between the speakers and a sitting distance at least equal to, and preferably greater than, the distance between them."

I've also moved my listening position to be 38% of the way into the room from the back wall as per Ethan Winer's recommendation to try and avoid room modes.

I've toed the speakers in a little so they're pointed roughly 6ft behind the listening position. I'm waiting for a laser pointer to try and get this accurate.

Here's a rough diagram of where I'm at:

And here's the reality of the room.

This is my home office, music room, generally techy storage/dumping ground and it's a work in progress (do excuse the mess) I'm yet to sort the left hand work surface. Not sure why the pics turned out so blurry and crap, but you get the idea.

The Sofa's now about 2 feet further forwards since the pic was taken.

Walls are almost 2ft thick stone with a rough render, floor is cork laminate over a concrete base and the roof is plasterboard.

2 things I can't really move by any amount are the wood burner and the desk space I use during the day

Here's my kit (temporarily plonked here till I work out a better home for it all)

Yamaha PC2002M power amp, Dual CS505-4 turntable

Yamaha C-4 Preamp and Marantz CD63

and the slight tweaks that live inside the CD63

I've knocked up a few sound absorber panels and run it like this for evening listening

But I suspect that the shape and surface of the vaulted ceiling is a major source of reflections and general horrible acoustic goings on.

I'm going to try mounting some of the panels up on the reflection points of the ceiling and see if it cleans the sound up.

Certainly, before I had any furniture in here, it sounded really horrible. Really echoey and peaky and with horrid boomy bass that sounded like it had no power to it.

The bass is currently ok, now, but not brilliant. It's very noticeably fat, deep and firm in the corners of the room. I wonder if some foam bass traps in the corners would make much of a difference with this? Anyone had any success with them? This type of thing http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ACOUSTAFOAM-Acoustic-Bass-Trap-Kit-for-Professional-Studio-Treatment-/281131064029

thanks again,

James

 

[manicatel]

OK, the pics help a fair bit.

First thoughts are

Hard, cork floor. Get a bigger rug/carpet/off-cut to span as much of the speaker-sofa distance as possible.

Vaulted ceilings can be a real be-atch, & not so easy to remedy. I'm not a fan of Plaster-board panels from an acoustic point of view either, but hey it's the real world, thats what you've got. I don't see the desk/bench or the stove as big problems.

The 1st reflection points along the side walls should be covered by your acoustic panels & yeah, if you can also get the 1st reflection points of the ceiling treated as well, so much the better.

So essentially, get the opportunity for reflections minimised wherever practical. If the ceiling work is too much, definitely get the biggest, thickest carpet/rug you can, which can be pretty cheap if you buy an "end of roll" of carpet. The carpet edges can be whipped/bound for not much ££ to turn a carpet into a rug. So then at least you'll have the 2 walls & floor reflections more controlled leaving only the ceiling. 3 out of 4 is better than nowt.

The bass end?? If it was me, I'd concentrate on the reflection for now, getting the focus as you like it. That seemed to be your main initial gripe. Then maybe tackle the bass traps afterwards. As you seem OK with making your acoustic panels, I'd also DIY your bass traps, corner placed frames with Rockwool stuffing & a reasonable air-gap behind them, faced with fabric of your choice. Easy, cheap & effective. Better than the eBay foam stuff.

Moving the speakers a tad further into the room may clean up the bass & moving the sofa slightly closer to the speakers might help imaging. The 38% thing is well respected, but is only a mathematical guide, not something set in stone. Moving closer to the speakers will minimise the reflections you hear as the sound from the speakers may appear more dominant.

I'm not familiar with your amps but maybe the sound you're looking for is beyound what the Dual/Yammy combo is able to give?

Room treatment/improvement is usually a lot more cost effective than upgrading the gear though.

Best of luck

Matt.

 

[Who Cares?]

I'd also try a concrete paving slab,(very cheap), under each speaker with and without spike shoes or a two pence piece.

 

[DWJames]

Thanks guys, that's really helpful.

Matt, there's not as much open floor as in the pics now I've pulled the sofa forward, but I'll look to get it covered better.

It's not that the desk or stove are problems acoustically, it's just that they dictate which way around the room must be and how far into the room the speakers can go before interfering with where I sit for work.

What would be the ideal solution for treating the ceiling? A floating 'cloud' of absorbers?

I'm satisfied that the amps should be capable of doing a job I'm happy with. They're from a time when things were made properly

WhoCares, good call on the slabs. The cork's not as flat as I'd like so I'd intended to bolt some small slabs or marble chopping boards or similar through to the concrete floor beneath and sit the speakers on those on their spikes. Just need to decide on the final positions...

I got some REW scans done this evening, which to my untrained eyes, suggest that there's no huge issues with nulls or peaks, but that the room is still massively resonant. I'll get some graphs up, but wasn't sure what level of smoothing people normally used?

Cheers,

James

 

[Who Cares?]

As "manicatel" said above, don't be afraid of moving the speakers further forward and also so with your sofa.

What I'm edging towards is askiing you to try a nearfield monitoring position and seeing, or rather, hearing, whether that provides what you want.

I have no doubt that the vaulted roof is your basic problem, so, my suggestion.

 

[manicatel]

I'd guess that a floating cloud type absorber arrangement would be the ideal to minimise the vaulted ceiling issues, but that won't be particularly easy/cheap. Lining the ceiling, at least at the 1st & maybe 2nd reflection points with acoustic panels similar to the ones you already have for the side-walls, made to size would also give substantial improvements at a more modest cost, I'd have thought. even temporarily fixing some old duvets/sleeping-bags etc up there to see how the damping changes things may be worth an experiment, when no-one else is looking!

Something damping down the rear wall reflections may prove beneficial as well. A couple of hanging rugs/tapestry or fake curtains for example

The nearfield monitoring idea suggested by "WhoCares" should solve the imaging issues & the concrete slab plinths is also a good idea for the bass. But that style of listening, where imaging & detail is king, sitting very close to the speakers may not suit everyone. A balance between the 2 I guess would be ideal.

Matt.

 

[DWJames]

cheers,

part of my issue when I mentioned the desk and stove not being moveable is that I can't bring the right hand speaker too much further into the room before it starts to clash with my desk chair

I've found imaging was improved by moving the listening seat further towards the speakers, I guess as you say that it's more direct and less open to external disruption. Too close and it just feels a bit weird though.... roughly where it is now seems a good balance like you say.

I'll have a play around again with moving the speakers out a touch, but I guess these are minor tweaks compared to the ceiling challenge!

I like the idea of hanging a duvet up there to get a feel for how much difference it'd make. Should be able to have a go of that easy enough

Here are my REW graphs. I believe they show that I basically have a great echo chamber!

Left SPL with 1/24 smoothing

Right SPL with 1/24 smoothing

Left waterfall

Right Waterfall

Left Spectro

Right Spectro

and here's the 6mb MDAT file for the 2 scans

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l3t46n9ur5vfmqt/workshop.mdat

Any observations of suggestions gratefully received

cheers,

James

 

[Purite Audio]

How are you making these measurements?

Keith.

 

[DWJames]

How are you making these measurements?Keith.

I'm using Room EQ Wizard http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/ on my laptop with an M-Audio Fast Track Pro external sound interface and a Behringer EM8000 measurement mic. 2 sweeps of 20hz to 20khz per scan and with everything turned up LOUD.

I have the mic calibration file loaded. I doubt that the db figures are accurate in the SPL graphs. I'm just interpreting their shapes.

I'm not sure why the SPL and waterfall graphs have those very clear and consistent upwards slopes though..