Speaker diaphragm material's effect on sound presentation.

[dave]

As I play with speakers, more and more I am convinced the cone / dome material each have there own distinct flavours. Recently bumped in to this very interesting test of four 3" dome mids by BlieSMa, which I have never heard of before, contrasting paper, silk, aluminium and beryllium.

https://hificompass.com/en/reviews/bliesma-m74a-6-m74b-6-m74p-6-and-m74s-6

The subjective observations and manufactures comments on the paper dome are about 4/5th of the way down.

 

[tuga]

As I play with speakers, more and more I am convinced the cone / dome material each have there own distinct flavours. Recently bumped in to this very interesting test of four 3" dome mids by BlieSMa, which I have never heard of before, contrasting paper, silk, aluminium and beryllium.

https://hificompass.com/en/reviews/bliesma-m74a-6-m74b-6-m74p-6-and-m74s-6

Interesting that the "harder" domes can be crossed higher than the soft ones. That in itself would be enough to sound different because the tweeter would come in at a higher frequency and the directivity of the speaker would be different for that reason.
HD doesn't seem that much different. The Be has by far the cleanest decay.

I wonder if there's any use for a 3" dome in anything less than a 4-way...

 

[zeta4]

Basically the cone material's stiffness governs the frequency of the first cone/dome break up modes. For instance metal cones have a higher first break up mode ( about 7khz for a 3in cone) than say paper ( 2khz). So as mentioned they tend to be able to be crossed over higher which has a sonic effect . However thats not all there is to it as most metals have very little internal damping and so the break up modes can be quite severe when they occur. Beryllium is the stiffest metal but difficult to work and is toxic. Magnesium has some internal damping.

Paper by contrast breaks up very early but the break up modes are nicely damped particularly if damping coatings are applied to the cones/domes. This difference also characterizes the different sounds from different driver cone materials

Manufacturers have been developing materials like bextrene/polypropylene/kevlar to try to get the best of both worlds and this work is still going on. So I think its a bit like valves versus solid state, different speaker materials will produce a different type of sound for these reasons and it finally comes down to which type you prefer.

 

[THOMO]

Zylon as used in the Yamaha NS5000 has some very good technical advantages.Which is why Yamaha selected it.It sounds extremely convincing to me and I have owned a lot of speakers with dome midranges.I still own Yamaha NS75Ts which use titanium and sound very good [much better than NS1000s] but believe the NS5000s are a game changer.

 

[bigrod]

It’s not just what the driver material is , Kevlar, plastic , metal , paper, doped paper etc ,, it’s more important what surrounds it connecting it to the basket / chassis

 

[2010*zuma]

12" inch paper cones and compression drivers rule

... anthing else is just crazy

 

[THOMO]

12" inch paper cones and compression drivers rule

... anthing else is just crazy

You mean 15 inch and compression drivers!
Yes they can sound great but so can 3 ways using dome mids.

 

[tuga]

It’s not just what the driver material is , Kevlar, plastic , metal , paper, doped paper etc ,, it’s more important what surrounds it connecting it to the basket / chassis

That is debatable. The suspension and surround are as much part of the driver as the diaphragm. A good design will have given equal attention to all parts.

 

[tuga]

12" inch paper cones and compression drivers rule

... anthing else is just crazy

You mean 15 inch and compression drivers!
Yes they can sound great but so can 3 ways using dome mids.

3-ways have higher performance potential than 2-ways, and each topology has advantages and disadvantages.

In other words, things are a lot more complicated than "12" inch paper cones and compression drivers" are better, and "15 inch and compression drivers" better still.
Implementation is the keyword here, as much as potential.

 

[dave]

It’s not just what the driver material is , Kevlar, plastic , metal , paper, doped paper etc ,, it’s more important what surrounds it connecting it to the basket / chassis

Hmm, I dare say that is true, that is why this test is interesting as it "seems" as if all the drivers are identical or almost, apart from the diaphragm, making the subjective observations interesting, by removing as many variables as possible.

I am playing with a pair of speakers with all aluminium drivers including a Dayton 2" dome mid. It has a particular sound, which I am trying to get my head around at the moment. This review's description of the aluminium dome, "belter for EDM", does feel familiar, it has a kind of muted quality. Compared to my old Dovedale's with 5" paper mid, that definitely seems to add something which mostly benefits classical, making it sound more "alive"...

 

[Fatmarley]

I like dome mids:

 

[uzzy]

3-ways have higher performance potential than 2-ways, and each topology has advantages and disadvantages.

In other words, things are a lot more complicated than "12" inch paper cones and compression drivers" are better, and "15 inch and compression drivers" better still.
Implementation is the keyword here, as much as potential.

I am not so sure that is true .. it depends on what an individual is looking for. In my experience two way loudspeakers image far better than 3 or 4 way speakers .. don't ask me why but that is my findings on listening to many many speakers. The compromise though is anything bigger than an 8 or 10 inch bass mid tends to lack the mid detail of an 8inch unit.
Many speaker manufacturers have opted for 2 1/2 way systems as a result .. basically a bass mid of 8 inches or smaller and a sub bass unit to extend the basss response.
At the end of the day though it is down to the designer and how clever they are and there will always be exceptions which means it is dangerous to have a mindset that something will sound better without actually hearing it

 

[pmcuk]

In my experience two way loudspeakers image far better than 3 or 4 way speakers .. don't ask me why but that is my findings on listening to many many speakers. The compromise though is anything bigger than an 8 or 10 inch bass mid tends to lack the mid detail of an 8inch unit.

I also find 2-way speakers the cleanest sounding. I'd go up to a 165mm 6.5" mid-bass rather than an 8", though. Or maybe a 150mm - plenty of good mid-bass units that size.

I do believe the cone material matters, and the break-up on aluminium cones is an issue which might suggest another alternative. What that is, I don't know, but there are some quite esoteric materials being used these days which seem to be replacing Kevlar which seems to have been passed over more recently. A trade-off between stiff and well-damped mostly.

 

[Lawrence001]

I'm sure I'll be told it's psychoacoustical but I find that metallic sounds like cymbals sound more realistic from metal dome tweeters than soft dome. Equally woody sounding instruments like the (baroque) oboe sound better through paper cones/soft domes.

 

[vintageaxeman]

I have found over the years, that aluminium ribbons sound far more realistic with things like string plucking, triangles and particularly cymbals, than with any other kind of tweeter. In particular, Decca Kelly ribbons are my absolute favourites.

 

[tuga]

I am not so sure that is true .. it depends on what an individual is looking for. In my experience two way loudspeakers image far better than 3 or 4 way speakers .. don't ask me why but that is my findings on listening to many many speakers. The compromise though is anything bigger than an 8 or 10 inch bass mid tends to lack the mid detail of an 8inch unit.
Many speaker manufacturers have opted for 2 1/2 way systems as a result .. basically a bass mid of 8 inches or smaller and a sub bass unit to extend the basss response.
At the end of the day though it is down to the designer and how clever they are and there will always be exceptions which means it is dangerous to have a mindset that something will sound better without actually hearing it

I was talking about performance, not personal preference. People like what they like.

And I always use the word potential because a bad 3-way design will perform worse than a good 2-way design.

Besides, most commercial speakers are built to a price point, for a particular client and sometimes with a touch of house sound.

 

[dave]

I have found over the years, that aluminium ribbons sound far more realistic with things like string plucking, triangles and particularly cymbals, than with any other kind of tweeter. In particular, Decca Kelly ribbons are my absolute favourites.

I think ribbon type drivers are another conversation. Having the membrane driven over its surface area, probably an order of magnitude step in the right direction, with a better impedance match to the air etc. It would be nice to think that the membrane material could have a lesser effect when driven in this way.

 

[tuga]

At the end of the day though it is down to the designer and how clever they are and there will always be exceptions which means it is dangerous to have a mindset that something will sound better without actually hearing it

Trying is definitely a must with speakers, I absolutely agree.

 

[Non-Smoking Man]

In my experience, as a type of midrange (and upper frequency driver in general), you would be hard pushed to beat the better compression drivers. They come in 2", 1.5" and 1" diameters as a rule and are capable of very fast reaction to signal and produce spls with minimal movement of their surface. (The less movement of the driver the less distortion.) To boot the horn, or 'waveguide' they are bolted to, aids transtion to air, enabling the 'first watt' theory of valve amp/speaker interface, viz. a typically lowpowered valve amp's forte is the first watt or two where it exhibits least distortion, with the horn yielding the efficiency requiring little power for suitable spls.

As the lightest and strongest material suitable for pressing into use for a comp, beryllium is favoured, as in my JBL 2435Be 1.5" drivers, derived from the Vertex (USA) system.
Ribbons are many horn enthusiasts choice for a supertweeter - the Raals, apparently are excellent (and I have heard the 'Lazy Ribbon' many times).

Jack NSM

 

[Nativebon]

So is this about everyone defending their design type of speaker?. Jokes apart, but now that I've heard what sealed enclosed speaker can do don't think I'm going back to ported of any form.
I believe port vents in speakers colour a lot of the frequency range of music unless special attention is taken to isolate each section, but in so doing adds to expense of the design.
Open baffle design... Now that's another topic altogether.