Speaker toe in

[flaxton]

I have a pair of Dali Rubicon 2 speakers. The left is 18 inches from the left wall and the right is about 3 feet. Dali say fire them straight into the room. Is this ok as the left one is pretty close to the wall.

 

[garn63]

Experiment a bit. You can think they are in optimum position only to tweak some time later with better results. Have a play & explore all options. What sounds best to you is the right set up. Even toeing in a bit ?

 

[Nopiano]

Yes, having looked at the instructions Dali are clear to aim them straight ahead, as you say. They are wide dispersion and probably sound sweeter off axis. Dali mention running in for 100 hours too, if yours are new. Good listening!

 

[Lawrence001]

Try it and choose whatever sounds best. The problem with side walls is the reflection, if only one is near the wall it can make the image off centre. Toe-in reduces the reflection but if they're rear ported you can get worse bass boom from the corner.

 

[bigrod]

Pick your natural most relaxing listening position , somewhere where you can put a drink down etc and experiment.
The acoustics of the room in respect of your listening position will determine where you put them ..furniture, distances, flat surfaces etc all play a part in timing of the music to the listener… it can take a while to get it just right .. if they are new let them run a few weeks before you make the final decisions,, your brain will tell you ..

 

[flaxton]

Thank you all. They are a year old.

 

[tuga]

I have a pair of Dali Rubicon 2 speakers. The left is 18 inches from the left wall and the right is about 3 feet. Dali say fire them straight into the room. Is this ok as the left one is pretty close to the wall.

Dali speakers are designed for use without toe-in but, for this reason, they will sound "bright" when placed close to the side walls.

Since the speaker positioning not symmetrical in your room it might actually sound more balance if you toe-in the speaker that is farther from the nearest wall a bit.
The best option might be to place some absorbing material on the wall that's 18" close to the speaker.

 

[uzzy]

As with any loudspeaker .. experiment with position to find where you like the sound best. If close to a side wall just a very small toe in may result in a smoother sound - You won't know until you try it

 

[tuga]

As with any loudspeaker .. experiment with position to find where you like the sound best. If close to a side wall just a very small toe in may result in a smoother sound - You won't know until you try it

Dali speakers are not like other speakers, they are designed for no toe-in. On axis they sound way too toppy, they're flat at 45º and thus put out a lot much energy to the sides than typical loudspeakers:

DALI Rubicon 8, lateral response family at 50"

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dali-rubicon-8-loudspeaker-measurements

 

[uzzy]

On axis they sound way too toppy, they're flat at 45º and thus put out a lot much energy to the sides than typical loudspeakers:

Aye Tuga .. I realise that. I would still experiment though because if they are close to side walls then the reflection may be even worse than sitting on axis .. It may prove to be a wasted exercise but you never know until you try. Hence why just a smidgeon of toe in may be fruiful (or it may not) - costs nothing to try

 

[Nifkin]

If the tweeters deliver at their best 45 degrees off axis then it won't be a surprise that the left speaker is getting a lot of reflections from the nearby wall. I guess the trick will be toeing in the that speaker enough to mitigate the wall reflections but not enough to put the listening position on the same axis as the tweeter. That'll be the sweet spot.

 

[plasticpenguin]

When it comes to speaker placement toe-in/out largely depends on how far you normally sit from the said speakers. Of course most brands will recommend some should should X amount of toe-in, such as Kef, Dali etc etc.

Personally I find the presentation more open with the PMCs almost straight, as I did with the RS6s.

I would suggest experimenting until you hear the ideal balance.

Oddly my new speakers will be the Rubicon 2s.

 

[flaxton]

When it comes to speaker placement toe-in/out largely depends on how far you normally sit from the said speakers. Of course most brands will recommend some should should X amount of toe-in, such as Kef, Dali etc etc.

Personally I find the presentation more open with the PMCs almost straight, as I did with the RS6s.

I would suggest experimenting until you hear the ideal balance.

Oddly my new speakers will be the Rubicon 2s.

Please let us know your findings when you get them. Thanks.

 

[plasticpenguin]

Please let us know your findings when you get them. Thanks.

Certainly will.

 

[flaxton]

I tried toe in but I don’t think is sounded as good so I have put them back firing straight. I have also pulled them a few inches further into the room which I think improves the sound.

 

[Sotosound]

I tried toe in but I don’t think is sounded as good so I have put them back firing straight. I have also pulled them a few inches further into the room which I think improves the sound.

If you have the patience, please move your speakers in or out, back or forth, one inch at a time, and then listen carefully to the results. You might be able to fine tune further. Eventually it will be like making fine EQ adjustments.

The same applies to toe-in. With toe-in it can be image versus energy - a difficult balance to get right.

 

[tuga]

The problem is that the speakers/listener triangle is not simmetrically postioned in the room and Dalis aren't really suited to narrow rooms and placement close to the side walls.

But maybe a bit of toe-in combined with some balance adjustment can do the trick, particularly if no absorption can be added to the wall that is close to the speaker.

 

[newlash09]

I have a pair of Dali Rubicon 2 speakers. The left is 18 inches from the left wall and the right is about 3 feet. Dali say fire them straight into the room. Is this ok as the left one is pretty close to the wall.

Hi sir

My speakers are also a wide dispersion DIY build. They were designed to fire straight ahead, with no toe-in. So below are my experiments with speaker placement and toe-in :

1. I always liked a expansive sound stage. So my speakers were placed closed to 11 ft apart. Though my listening distance is 8.5 feet.
2. Though I had a massive sound stage, my imaging was just about average.
3. I started toeing in my speakers, in the hope that my imaging would improve, but it just collapsed further.
4. I then realised that the more I toed in my speakers, the more the reflections from my untreated front wall, were interfering with the direct sound, and were ruining my imaging.
5. So I now have both speakers firing straight.
6. The biggest benefit I've discovered is by moving my speakers closer, they are now 8feet apart, tweeter to tweeter. And my listening distance remains the same at 8.5 feet. I find that, as long as the speaker to speaker distance, remains lower than the speaker to listener distance, then imaging snaps into place, with no toe-in.
7. In your certain case sir, I would suggest playing the " the ballad of the run away horse" sung by Miss. emmalouis Harris ( there is also a version of it sung by a male singer). But this is a reference track , used by lots of professional installers in the USA , to nail the imaging.
8. I only found it on YouTube so far, but when you play it, the lady's vocals have to be exactly at the center between the speakers. So if your goodselves finds, that they are skewed to left of center, due to the left speaker being closer to a side wall, then you can start toeing in the right speaker, till you have a central vocal image again.
9. Miss Emma Louis Harris, is 5'8" tall. So the vocal has to come from this exact height. You can play with tilting the speakers forward or backwards to get this exact height..
10. Once you've got this track, with the vocals exactly at the center, and at the right height, then you will have the best imaging possible, in your room.

All the best sir

PS : iam a relative newbie to this hobby, and my room is very heavily treated for only bass. But I still like a expansive sound stage, so I will again move my speakers to be 11feet apart, and I will toe-in the speakers, only once I've treated my front wall with 3D skyline diffusers. Vicoustic seem to he the cheapest around .

 

[flaxton]

Hi sir

My speakers are also a wide dispersion DIY build. They were designed to fire straight ahead, with no toe-in. So below are my experiments with speaker placement and toe-in :

1. I always liked a expansive sound stage. So my speakers were placed closed to 11 ft apart. Though my listening distance is 8.5 feet.
2. Though I had a massive sound stage, my imaging was just about average.
3. I started toeing in my speakers, in the hope that my imaging would improve, but it just collapsed further.
4. I then realised that the more I toed in my speakers, the more the reflections from my untreated front wall, were interfering with the direct sound, and were ruining my imaging.
5. So I now have both speakers firing straight.
6. The biggest benefit I've discovered is by moving my speakers closer, they are now 8feet apart, tweeter to tweeter. And my listening distance remains the same at 8.5 feet. I find that, as long as the speaker to speaker distance, remains lower than the speaker to listener distance, then imaging snaps into place, with no toe-in.
7. In your certain case sir, I would suggest playing the " the ballad of the run away horse" sung by Miss. emmalouis Harris ( there is also a version of it sung by a male singer). But this is a reference track , used by lots of professional installers in the USA , to nail the imaging.
8. I only found it on YouTube so far, but when you play it, the lady's vocals have to be exactly at the center between the speakers. So if your goodselves finds, that they are skewed to left of center, due to the left speaker being closer to a side wall, then you can start toeing in the right speaker, till you have a central vocal image again.
9. Miss Emma Louis Harris, is 5'8" tall. So the vocal has to come from this exact height. You can play with tilting the speakers forward or backwards to get this exact height..
10. Once you've got this track, with the vocals exactly at the center, and at the right height, then you will have the best imaging possible, in your room.

All the best sir

PS : iam a relative newbie to this hobby, and my room is very heavily treated for only bass. But I still like a expansive sound stage, so I will again move my speakers to be 11feet apart, and I will toe-in the speakers, only once I've treated my front wall with 3D skyline diffusers. Vicoustic seem to he the cheapest around .

Hi. Thank you for your advice. I agree about the distance between speakers being smaller than the distance you sit away from them. I like to sit quite close to the speakers. I think this gives less side wall reflections.

 

[hearhere]

Where "proper" placement of conventional box speakers is difficult, it may be worth looking at other types of speaker. It's always difficult to convince oneself that one has chosen the wrong type, but getting the right type may well dramatically improve the sound in an awkward room.

My own room is tricky but for quite different reasons - there are no side or rear walls within 10 ft of the speakers. I did think that electrostatics should sound good, but after spending a load of dosh on a nice new pair, they proved no good at all in my room. I've returned to horns that are generally far less fussy of presence or absence of side and rear walls than other types and my music is now as dynamic and as exciting as I could hope for. As far as toe-in is concerned my speakers are best pointed to a point just in front of the listener, but this positioning is unlikely to be ideal with your speakers - but give it a try anyway - you have nothing to lose and it'd take only a couple of minutes to hear the results. Peter