Speakers for a bright room - lessons learned

jas0_0

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Hi all,

A few months back I posted on What Hi Fi's forum (RIP) about Proac 1SCs hurting my ears.  Those who helped out requested I report back with progress, and having seen a few of you around these parts, The Wam seems the right place for a follow up. 

The short story: compared to when I first posted, I'm now in audio heaven. The long story is... well... long (unless, SPOILER ALERT, you look at my Wam profile).  Most importantly I learned some really valuable lessons along the way.

Back in May I was battling harsh upper mids and lower treble.  Listening fatigue set in early.  I caught a sensitively-eared friend wincing at my system's high notes.  The rig was a Space Optimised Linn Majik streamer feeding a NOS Mullarded Croft pre, a Nord power and Proac 1SC speakers - all bought blind, based on reviews and multi-forum hype.  To me, the Proacs were the problem because Stereophile said they could be bright in small under-furnished rooms like mine.  I put this to the WHF collective, and the response was swift. 

Someone kindly suggested Harbeths or Spendor Classics, while another reported good things of Acoustic Energy actives.  So I tottered off to marvellous Audio Gold in North London, who kindly loaned me a beautiful pair of used Spendor SP3-1R2s and a set of Acoustic Energy AE1 Actives.  The Spendors were wonderful - like the Proacs but more of everything - but a frosty harshness still came through. Switching in the AE1s the harshness evaporated, but at the expense of the treble air I'd been spoiled with by the Proacs.  It began to dawn that maybe speakers weren't the issue.

Back went the Spendors and AE1s, and I returned home to Clapton with another Audio Gold loaner.  This time a mighty brick of a Quad 606 power amp - quite an effort on the 106 bus.  The Quad played nicer with the Proacs adding guts and organic reality.   But like the AE1s, this warm generosity ended at the top end.  The 606 couldn't scour the Nord's crystalline highs.  So I put in a email to Adrian at Audio Flair.  A couple of days later a loaner Croft 7R power came, saw the 606 and the Nord, and conquered.  Croft fans abound on The Wam so I won't go on, but for me, in the 7R Glenn has created an unassuming black box that stirs in Quad's guts and Nord's glistening highs, adds molten honey valve magic and feeds my Proacs a truth they've never yet known.  The 7R was a keeper.

BIG LESSON ONE - Glistening reviews and forum plaudits don't mean a component will work in my system

Even bearing two rounds of valves, my system still had a brittle edge.  A WHF forum member suggested curtains, so I feigned interior design interest and proposed softening our glassy apartment.  By chance my girlfriend's mum found two heavyweights in a charity shop and, following a trip to Wickes for the manliest drill I will ever buy, up they went.  Another WHF forum mentioned speaker toe in and I began experimenting, ending up with the Proacs pointed straight at the listening position rather than just angled in from dead ahead.  Now things were really improving.

BIG LESSON TWO - The environment and positioning of speakers can have as much impact as big component changes 

But still there was a harshness.  I realised my digital rig was the sole perpetrator.  My turntable was all warmth and friendliness.  The Linn DSi suddenly looked suspicious.  But surely a streamer from a company as worshipped as Linn couldn't possibly be a problem?  Funds were limited and if I were to ditch the multi-talented DSi, I'd need a streamer or server, a phono stage, some form of digital room correction, and a DAC.  Long story shortened, I brought in an iMac that I already owned and added Audirvana and a parametric eq plugin for room correction.  I had a Project Phono Box kicking around, and I got a used DSPeaker Anti Mode to room correct my turntable.  Then I bought in a used Chord 2Qute to take on DAC duties. 

The new additions utterly destroyed the DSi.  An Audirvanaed iMac bested its streamer, DSPeaker's microphone-based room correction made a mockery of its Space Optimisation in my flat and the Chord revealed instrumental timbre the Linn DAC could only dream of.  The one area I'm still lacking is the phono stage, as the Project doesn't touch the preamp built into the Linn - probably my next upgrade.  

BIG LESSON THREE - Multi-talented all-in-one boxes from big name hi fi manufacturers can easily be bettered by separates for similar money **OR** digital moves fast and a 2009 streamer/DAC is easily outclassed by more recent tech.

With the Linn sold and its replacements fuelling my system, everything just sounds right.  I was looking to tame harshness, and I have now achieved this, but I have also gained wonderful tonal saturation, deep bass, and shimmering highs.  My system finally sounds fun and movingly beautiful with any type of music.  And the grand total spent?  Happily almost everything cancelled out... the combined sales of the Linn and the Nord covered the Croft, DSPeaker, Chord and software, and the curtains came for free.  The only thing I actually ended up paying for was £60 for that burly drill.  Which leaves me with the most important lesson of all...

FUNDAMENTAL LESSON FOUR - Hi fi is not about buying expensive, well-reviewed components blind and expecting them to work together in a perfect sounding system that loves all music genres in equal measure.  It's about carefully matching components and allowing each to bring out the strengths of the other by listening to what works.

Of course most of you reading (still??) this probably already know it, and maybe a few of you have been through a similar rite of passage as mine to understand it.  There are clearly still areas of my system that could be improved, and I'm looking forward to ironing out its wrinkles for the rest of my life.  I also feel I owe Audio Gold a return for their help.  I haven't forgotten those Spendors... 

Finally, a big thanks to those of you who pitched in on my initial What Hi Fi question - you sent me on a good path.

And if you've got this far, you must be as much of a hi fi nut as I am.  

 
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PuritéAudio

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You could have saved a lot of time by simply acoustically measuring your room, the ‘fix’ could have simply been slightly shelving down the treble or even toeing out your speakers.

Keith

 

jas0_0

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You could have saved a lot of time by simply acoustically measuring your room, the ‘fix’ could have simply been slightly shelving down the treble or even toeing out your speakers.
I attempted shelving down treble using Linn's Space Optimisation.  The software's built in treble shelf made little difference, and when I tried adding a more drastic custom adjustment, all I got was a more muffled version of the hard sound I was trying to lose.

In any case, despite some frustrating moments, I enjoyed the journey and learned a lot, so it wasn't time wasted.  

 

Beobloke

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BIG LESSON ONE - Glistening reviews and forum plaudits don't mean a component will work in your system
Gosh, and there was me starting to believe the folks who bang on about forum reviews being the be all and end all; who’d have thought it?
wink.png


You could have saved a lot of time by simply acoustically measuring your room, the ‘fix’ could have simply been slightly shelving down the treble or even toeing out your speakers.Keith
Keith, really? If the problem is at the source then no amount of room and speaker fiddling is going to cure it - you should know that.

 

newlash09

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Great job Jas....Really happy for you :)

Excellent write up on your journey. And honestly, I get more hope from posts like this, that perseverance and commitment matter more than deep pockets in this hobby. And serves as a reminder that the high street brands are not the sole keepers of great sound.

And I'd agree that it is always the sum of the parts, than one single expensive component doing multi roles. Glad you got there in the end,  and managed to inspire less fortunate blokes like me in the process . Way to go :)

 

Fatmarley

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I agree regarding Nord and Quad (306 in my case). Had to attack my 306 with the soldering iron to remove the soft treble (replaced carbon resistors with metal film)

 

PuritéAudio

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Gosh, and there was me starting to believe the folks who bang on about forum reviews being the be all and end all; who’d have thought it?
wink.png


Keith, really? If the problem is at the source then no amount of room and speaker fiddling is going to cure it - you should know that.
Adam the source was a Linn streamer, modern oversampling design with I presume a flat FR, how could that be the issue?

Keith

 

dudywoxer

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having heard a linn streamer recently, very easily. As the turntable was OK, the digital source not, where would you look,  Speaker stands, cables, or the obvious culprit?

Adam the source was a Linn streamer, modern oversampling design with I presume a flat FR, how could that be the issue?

Keith
 

jas0_0

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the source was a Linn streamer, modern oversampling design with I presume a flat FR, how could that be the issue?
Hi Keith,

Are you suggesting modern streamers and OS DACs all sound much the same?  The Linn wasn't the only problem in my system - I hope my original post reveals that every step since May has taken me closer to the sound I was looking for.  It just happened that removing the Linn, with its (to my ears) slightly dry and lean presentation, was the final step in sorting it out.  While debating whether to shift the Linn, I ran the iMac+Audirvana (no EQ) through the Linn's optical DAC and did some A-B tests against the streamer.  To my surprise the iMac sounded better, with less glare in the upper mids/lower treble. 

J

 

uzzy

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Adam the source was a Linn streamer, modern oversampling design with I presume a flat FR, how could that be the issue?

Keith
I dunno - ask my missus - all the first generation and second generation cd players gave her a headache if listening at any listening volumes.  She is of the same opinion now in that with LPs she likes to listen far louder than she does with CD.  Now of course the CD probably has a fatter frequency response but regardless of CD player, she still says it is not as pleasant and loud volumes.  She is no hifi buff but she has a great pair of ears and her opinion is highly valued by me on her aural views on a piece of kit in the system and the system as a whole.    I think it is nowt to do with the FR it is the overall aural experience of digital to which some peoples ears are perhaps more sensitive than others :)  

 

tuga

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BIG LESSON ONE - Glistening reviews and forum plaudits don't mean a component will work in my system

Even bearing two rounds of valves, my system still had a brittle edge.  A WHF forum member suggested curtains, so I feigned interior design interest and proposed softening our glassy apartment.  By chance my girlfriend's Mum found two heavyweights in a charity shop and, following a trip to Wickes for the manliest drill I will ever buy, up they went.  Another WHF forum mentioned speaker toe in and I began experimenting, ending up with the Proacs pointed straight at the listening position rather than just angled in from dead ahead.  Now things were really improving.

BIG LESSON TWO - The environment and positioning of speakers can have as much impact as big component changes 

But still there was a harshness.  I realised my digital rig was the sole perpetrator.  My turntable was all warmth and friendliness.  The Linn DSi suddenly looked suspicious.  But surely a streamer from a company as worshipped as Linn couldn't possibly be a problem?  Funds were limited and if I were to ditch the multi-talented DSi, I'd need a streamer or server, a phono stage, some form of digital room correction, and a DAC.  Long story shortened, I brought in an iMac that I already owned and added Audirvana and a parametric eq plugin for room correction.  I had a Project Phono Box kicking around, and I got a used DSPeaker Anti Mode to room correct my turntable.  Then I bought in a used Chord 2Qute to take on DAC duties. 

The new additions utterly destroyed the DSi.  An Audirvanaed iMac bested its streamer, DSPeaker's microphone-based room correction made a mockery of its Space Optimisation in my flat and the Chord revealed instrumental timbre the Linn DAC could only dream of.  The one area I'm still lacking is the phono stage, as the Project doesn't touch the preamp built into the Linn - probably my next upgrade.  

BIG LESSON THREE - Multi-talented all-in-one boxes from big name hi fi manufacturers can easily be bettered by separates for similar money **OR** digital moves fast and a 2009 streamer/DAC is easily outclassed by more recent tech.

With the Linn sold and its replacements fuelling my system, everything just sounds right.  I was looking to tame harshness, and I have now achieved this, but I have also gained wonderful tonal saturation, deep bass, and shimmering highs.  My system finally sounds fun and movingly beautiful with any type of music.  And the grand total spent?  Happily almost everything cancelled out... the combined sales of the Linn and the Nord covered the Croft, DSPeaker, Chord and software, and the curtains came for free.  The only thing I actually ended up paying for was £60 for that burly drill.  Which leaves me with the most important lesson of all...

FUNDAMENTAL LESSON FOUR - Hi fi is not about buying expensive, well-reviewed components blind and expecting them to work together in a perfect sounding system that loves all music genres in equal measure.  It's about carefully matching components and allowing each to bring out the strengths of the other by listening to what works.

Of course most of you reading (still??) this probably already know it, and maybe a few of you have been through a similar rite of passage as mine to understand it.  There are clearly still areas of my system that could be improved, and I'm looking forward to ironing out its wrinkles for the rest of my life.  I also feel I owe Audio Gold a return for their help.  I haven't forgotten those Spendors... 

Finally, a big thanks to those of you who pitched in on my initial What Hi Fi question - you sent me on a good path.

And if you've got this far, you must be as much of a hi fi nut as I am.  
I agree with most of what you've written but I'd like to add a couple of comments if you don't mind.

You've named the topic "Speakers for a bright room - lessons learned" yet the problem is not so much the room but the speakers. The ProAc Response 1SC's tweeter is not well integrated and as a result most of the treble is exaggerated by some 4 or 5dB. A friend of mine had these speakers, and the SP9/1s I used to own had the same D2010 tweeter so I know that the problem is not the tweeter but the way it was integrated with the mid-woofer.

.

pr1fig2.jpg


ProAc Response 1 SC

100fig2.jpg


Spendor S100 frequency response

.

The other thing has to do with the use of amplifiers with high output-impedance because the combined (amplifier+speaker) response will be affected by the speaker's impedance characteristics and not what the speaker designer intended.

1013Croftfig04.jpg


Croft Phono Integrated, volume control at maximum, frequency response at 2.83V into:
simulated loudspeaker load (black), 8 ohms (left channel blue, right red), 4 ohms (left cyan, right magenta),
2 ohms (green) (1dB/vertical div.).
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/croft-acoustics-phono-integrated-integrated-amplifier-measurements
.
As you can see, when subject to the dummy load (used to simulate the ffects of a speaker load on the amplifier's response) the measured frequency response is no longer flat (black curve).
.
And as JA commented in the R1SC measurements page "its impedance does vary widely, meaning that amplifiers with high source impedances will change their frequency responses to a subjectively significant extent."

pr1fig1.jpg


Partnering the R1SCs with a high output-impedance amplifier will result in an even more exaggerated treble.

I don't know if your Nods had a high or low output-impedance but this an often ignored factor that has a real impact on tonal balance.

 

PuritéAudio

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Hi Keith,

Are you suggesting modern streamers and OS DACs all sound much the same?  The Linn wasn't the only problem in my system - I hope my original post reveals that every step since May has taken me closer to the sound I was looking for.  It just happened that removing the Linn, with its (to my ears) slightly dry and lean presentation, was the final step in sorting it out.  While debating whether to shift the Linn, I ran the iMac+Audirvana (no EQ) through the Linn's optical DAC and did some A-B tests against the streamer.  To my surprise the iMac sounded better, with less glare in the upper mids/lower treble. 

J
Yes contemporary oversampling designs are going to sound pretty similar if not identical, the only possible variation is the reconstruction filter used, which may be audibly different.

I would have expected both ‘transports’  to have sounded identical through the same dac, although I am not familiar with Linn equipment.

Keith

 

jas0_0

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You've named the topic "Speakers for a bright room - lessons learned" yet the problem is not so much the room but the speakers.
Thanks Tuga, your post is interesting - I wasn't aware of issues around the 1SC's tweeter integration.

The measurements may say there's a mismatch between my amp and my speakers, but in listening tests I fond that my room, the original amp, the digital source and the DAC combined created the brightness I was experiencing.

That said, I may continue to try new speakers.  Much is made of the match between Croft and Harbeth for example, and I really liked the Spendors I tested in my system. 

 

savvypaul

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I agree with most of what you've written but I'd like to add a couple of comments if you don't mind.

You've named the topic "Speakers for a bright room - lessons learned" yet the problem is not so much the room but the speakers. The ProAc Response 1SC's tweeter is not well integrated and as a result most of the treble is exaggerated by some 4 or 5dB. A friend of mine had these speakers, and the SP9/1s I used to own had the same D2010 tweeter so I know that the problem is not the tweeter but the way it was integrated with the mid-woofer.

.

pr1fig2.jpg


ProAc Response 1 SC

100fig2.jpg


Spendor S100 frequency response

.

The other thing has to do with the use of amplifiers with high output-impedance because the combined (amplifier+speaker) response will be affected by the speaker's impedance characteristics and not what the speaker designer intended.

1013Croftfig04.jpg


Croft Phono Integrated, volume control at maximum, frequency response at 2.83V into:
simulated loudspeaker load (black), 8 ohms (left channel blue, right red), 4 ohms (left cyan, right magenta),
2 ohms (green) (1dB/vertical div.).
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/croft-acoustics-phono-integrated-integrated-amplifier-measurements
.
As you can see, when subject to the dummy load (used to simulate the ffects of a speaker load on the amplifier's response) the measured frequency response is no longer flat (black curve).
.
And as JA commented in the R1SC measurements page "its impedance does vary widely, meaning that amplifiers with high source impedances will change their frequency responses to a subjectively significant extent."

pr1fig1.jpg


Partnering the R1SCs with a high output-impedance amplifier will result in an even more exaggerated treble.

I don't know if your Nods had a high or low output-impedance but this an often ignored factor that has a real impact on tonal balance.
JA also says:

The response has the classic swayback shape that I first heard with the LS3/5A: the BBC engineers determined that, because of the lack of true bass with a minimonitor, slightly boosting the upper bass, and balancing that at the other end of the spectrum with a similar peak in the top octave, gives a balance that subjectively sounds more natural than if the speaker measured flat. Without the upper-bass profiling, such a small speaker can sound thin, as with ProAc's original Tablette from over a decade ago. The Response One has no low bass—the low frequencies are 6dB down at 51Hz—but note how smooth its measured response is throughout the midrange and treble.
 

Summing up, the measurements indicate that the tiny ProAc is a well-engineered gem of a speaker. I am not surprised that WP liked its sound as much as he did.

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/proac-response-one-sc-loudspeaker-measurements-part-2#MGHd1vyzMz3VPi6k.99

 

jas0_0

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I would have expected both ‘transports’  to have sounded identical through the same dac, although I am not familiar with Linn equipment.
My experience is that transports sound different into the same DAC.  In this latest test, iMac+iTunes sounded worse than the Linn's streamer, while iMac+Audirvana sounded better.  A year or so ago I tested the Linn's streamer using its digital out into a Cyrus DAC and compared it to a Auralic Aries Mini - that time the Linn was clearly better, sounding more organic and natural than the Auralic.  My girlfriend sat in on the Linn/Auralic test.  I didn't tell her which was playing, just 'do you prefer this one... or this one...' in random order and she picked the Linn every time, for the same reasons as me.

 

tuga

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Thanks Tuga, your post is interesting - I wasn't aware of issues around the 1SC's tweeter integration.
Well, you did hear it and it's obvious from the measurements I posted above. It used to be part of the ProAc house sound in those days...

The measurements may say there's a mismatch between my amp and my speakers, but in listening tests I fond that my room, the original amp, the digital source and the DAC combined created the brightness I was experiencing.

That said, I may continue to try new speakers.  Much is made of the match between Croft and Harbeth for example, and I really liked the Spendors I tested in my system. 
What I was trying to say is that choosing speakers with amplifiers that have high output-impedance will always be a shot in the dark, and much more risky if you buy without listening. Auditioning is even more mandatory...

 

CnoEvil

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I remember your plight....and I'm glad you have got it sorted. Croft/ProAc is a good combination. I'm surprised the Linn DS gave hard edge...but it's your ears that need to be satisfied.

 
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