Speakers Not Working In A Room

tuga

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I sort of sympathise with the arguement that just about anything can be done in the digital domain without any loss, but in reality this just isn't the case. Otherwise a cheap streamer would sound identical to a high end one costing a 5-figure sum.
You are conflating several aspects of digital audio into one big melting pot.
I am talking about manipulating the signal in the digital domain - maths.
A streamer is something completely different, although some streamers do also use DSP (e.g. Mola-Mola). Streamers are not relevant to the topic we're discussing.

In my experience the analogue theory that no unnecessary processing of the precious signal is what one should aim for for ultimate sound quality, applies to digital too, though not to such an extent. Otherwise how can it be explained that the sound from my own system loses some of its top end fidelity when I engage a sub-500 Hz-only Dirac filter? It clearly does though.
That's why I wrote that the DSP needs to be performed at ≥ 48-bit. I don't know how Dirac does it, or your NAD.

It's the same issue with digital volume in file players, DACs, or Class-D amplifiers your NAD's, once you go above 32-bit floating point DSP it becomes virtually transparent. See document below.

https://docdro.id/LqImq61
 

hearhere

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You are conflating several aspects of digital audio into one big melting pot.
I am talking about manipulating the signal in the digital domain - maths.
A streamer is something completely different, although some streamers do also use DSP (e.g. Mola-Mola). Streamers are not relevant to the topic we're discussing.


That's why I wrote that the DSP needs to be performed at ≥ 48-bit. I don't know how Dirac does it, or your NAD.

It's the same issue with digital volume in file players, DACs, or Class-D amplifiers your NAD's, once you go above 32-bit floating point DSP it becomes virtually transparent. See document below.

https://docdro.id/LqImq61
Yes, I'm sure you're right but none of what you say explains the reality of the situation with "room correction" DSP, in that some top end sparkle is lost when a filter is engaged - whether using Dirac or RoomPerfect, or I suspect any other DSP that's built into a full-range device - normally an integrated amp with DAC. I'd like to think that any digital file can be manipulated as much and as often as one likes and it still survives unscathed, but in reality it does suffer.
 

tuga

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Yes, I'm sure you're right but none of what you say explains the reality of the situation with "room correction" DSP, in that some top end sparkle is lost when a filter is engaged - whether using Dirac or RoomPerfect, or I suspect any other DSP that's built into a full-range device - normally an integrated amp with DAC. I'd like to think that any digital file can be manipulated as much and as often as one likes and it still survives unscathed, but in reality it does suffer.

You had a bad experience with Dirac and the NAD into the Avantgarde speakers, all that you can claim is that in your system it doesn't work.
Or did you try other DRC software and equipment with DSP?

Also you need to start using DRC (Digital Room Correction) instead of DSP, which as I mentioned previously, is a lot more than just EQ.
 
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hearhere

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You had a bad experience with Dirac and the NAD into the Avantgarde speakers, all that you can claim is that in your system it doesn't work.
Or did you try other DRC software and equipment with DSP?

Also you need to start using DRC (Digital Room Correction) instead of DSP, which as I mentioned previously, is a lot more than just EQ.
My experience with NAD and Avantgarde is great. I chose the NAD after home auditioning 12 amps, several costing 2 or 3 times the price. Amongst these amps were ones featuring Dirac (NAD), RoomPerfect (Lyngdorf) and MARS (Micromega), but none of these put me off choosing the NAD as (without Dirac engaged) it offered the best sound quality / feature list.

Frankly as described earlier, I don't think electronics is the best way to correct the room. At best it can adjust the speaker's response to compensate for room problems, but as already described, I believe there are better, less intrusive means of achieving this goal. Therefore I'm very content with the NAD M33 as (to my initial surprise) it proved the best match for my Avantgarde speakers, but the sound is better without Dirac than it is if a filter is engaged. I’m happy to demonstrate this to anyone who cares to visit sunny Portsmouth for an evening of lively music and discussion.
 
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Dogwithnotail

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This is a really fascinating thread with lots of great input.

My thoughts with any filtering in dsp is that even though it’s just maths, it can be quite difficult to implement with full transparency. Most filter types introduce a phase shift which may influence our perception of music in a subtle way or change the way our speakers couple with the room.

I’m interested to know what filter algorithms are offered by Dirac.
 

tuga

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I don't think electronics is the best way to correct the room. At best it can adjust the speaker's response to compensate for room problems, but as already described, I believe there are better, less intrusive means of achieving this goal.
I agree that the best way to address room issues in the bass is through acoustic treatment because as you've said it can only correct peaks but not dips and only for one listener.
But you cannot correct bass issues with furniture and I disagree that DSP has a negative impact on the signal. You have to try other options.

What made you choose Class D amplification to drive horns?
It's a very uncommon choice to use 200W amplification into 100dB speakers when you probably just need 0.5W.
 

Ray Vardy

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Our idea of what sounds good is all wonky anyway. Would love to have got In to a studio with the guy at the mixing desk to understand how they intended it to sound.
 

bigfish786

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It’s taken me several months to get my speakers sounding right in my room. Lots of tweaking and countless hours of dissatisfaction, but I’m at the point where now I think they sound great. I would say in that time my brain has also got used to a very different presentation compared to my last speakers. The persistence paid off.
 
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hearhere

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It’s taken me several months to get my speakers sounding right in my room. Lots of tweaking and countless hours of dissatisfaction, but I’m at the point where now I think they sound great. I would say in that time my brain has also got used to a very different presentation compared to my last speakers. The persistence paid off.
Well done. There is an element of "getting used to" a different presentation from new speakers, but preconceptions are normally based on what you had before - presumably less good speakers that nevertheless offered a nice sound.

You have found that it pays dividends to spend lots of time and effort to get the best from your speakers, as I did after moving home. You don't say so, but I think you haven't resorted to "room correction DSP". Am I right?
 
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hearhere

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What made you choose Class D amplification to drive horns?
It's a very uncommon choice to use 200W amplification into 100dB speakers when you probably just need 0.5W.
I used valve SET amps (offering 5 to 28 watts) for the first 17 years of Avantgarde (Uno) ownership, but decided that I'd listen to far more music if I could find a solid state amp that provided equally satisfying music.

This led me to buy or borrow a dozen ss amps of various flavours, from 12 to 200 watts. Some were frankly drearily dull including the Benchmark that was raved about by an AG Trio owner on another forum. Others were much better and I was expecting a Class A amp to win the day. The Sugden was poor but the Accuphase was wonderful though a little too "polite". Of the others I quite liked the Mark Levinson, but the best AB amp was the GamuT. Other less well-known brands that I tested were from Valvet, Bakoon, Micromega, Quad, Lyngdorf, etc. However the best sounding were the GamuT and the NAD M32 that I later switched to the subtly even better M33. Each amp was compared with my earlier 845-based mon SETs.

I really don't care what the amp technology is as long as it sounds great and also its power output isn't relevant. The NAD may be unnecessarily powerful but its headroom pays off at high listening levels.

I'm currently considering a further upgrade of electronics and want to move the amp section from the rest, so I'll be looking for a streamer / DAC / preamp. There are not many that tick the boxes I want ticked, but the new NAD M66 seems a good contender. How it sounds compared with equivalents from the more upmarket brands has yet to be established, but I think the M66 will take some beating even by others at 2-3 times the price, such as Lumin P1 for example. Meanwhile I have bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D mono amps that Ralph (owner of A-S) believes is the best sounding of all this amps - hugely costly OTL valve amps. He believes he’s seen the writing on the wall for big energy-greedy and inefficient valve amps. I have no regrets in buying the M33 which I did before Stereophile awarded its Best Amp of the Year, Best Component of the Year and Editors’ Choice Awards to this relatively modestly-priced box of tricks. It really is that good, despite the name NAD being still considered by some as a mid-fi brand.
 

tuga

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I used valve SET amps (offering 5 to 28 watts) for the first 17 years of Avantgarde (Uno) ownership, but decided that I'd listen to far more music if I could find a solid state amp that provided equally satisfying music.

This led me to buy or borrow a dozen ss amps of various flavours, from 12 to 200 watts. Some were frankly drearily dull including the Benchmark that was raved about by an AG Trio owner on another forum. Others were much better and I was expecting a Class A amp to win the day. The Sugden was poor but the Accuphase was wonderful though a little too "polite". Of the others I quite liked the Mark Levinson, but the best AB amp was the GamuT. Other less well-known brands that I tested were from Valvet, Bakoon, Micromega, Quad, Lyngdorf, etc. However the best sounding were the GamuT and the NAD M32 that I later switched to the subtly even better M33. Each amp was compared with my earlier 845-based mon SETs.

I really don't care what the amp technology is as long as it sounds great and also its power output isn't relevant. The NAD may be unnecessarily powerful but its headroom pays off at high listening levels.

I'm currently considering a further upgrade of electronics and want to move the amp section from the rest, so I'll be looking for a streamer / DAC / preamp. There are not many that tick the boxes I want ticked, but the new NAD M66 seems a good contender. How it sounds compared with equivalents from the more upmarket brands has yet to be established, but I think the M66 will take some beating even by others at 2-3 times the price, such as Lumin P1 for example. Meanwhile I have bought a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D mono amps that Ralph (owner of A-S) believes is the best sounding of all this amps - hugely costly OTL valve amps. He believes he’s seen the writing on the wall for big energy-greedy and inefficient valve amps. I have no regrets in buying the M33 which I did before Stereophile awarded its Best Amp of the Year, Best Component of the Year and Editors’ Choice Awards to this relatively modestly-priced box of tricks. It really is that good, despite the name NAD being still considered by some as a mid-fi brand.

I am with you, what matters most in the end is that the system sounds good to you, not how you get it to sound good.

To be honest, I really don't care about reviews or awards. I also don't think that gear price is representative of performance. As for Ralph, the phrase 'if you can't beat them, join them' comes to mind. Class D modules are like DAC chips, they're all-in-ones which practically run themselves. Ralph's buying a GaNFET chip for 3 quid and selling it in a box for £5k. That's quite a lesson in adding value...
 
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Nothingface

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It’s taken me several months to get my speakers sounding right in my room. Lots of tweaking and countless hours of dissatisfaction, but I’m at the point where now I think they sound great. I would say in that time my brain has also got used to a very different presentation compared to my last speakers. The persistence paid off.

Until you upgrade...then it all starts again...
 
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bigfish786

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six months ago, I was questioning my decision To buy the Triangles. Now, I’m happy to keep hold of them for a good while longer. There are still speakers out there that I’d like to own, but there’s no rush right now.
 

Hifimad1

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six months ago, I was questioning my decision To buy the Triangles. Now, I’m happy to keep hold of them for a good while longer. There are still speakers out there that I’d like to own, but there’s no rush right now.
Maybe try some square or round speakers next time ?
 

hearhere

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Class D modules are like DAC chips, they're all-in-ones which practically run themselves. Ralph's buying a GaNFET chip for 3 quid and selling it in a box for £5k. That's quite a lesson in adding value...
You're wrong in that opinion. The Class D technology used in the Atma-Sphere Class D amp is Ralph's own design using GaN FET, but there's a lot more than 3 quids’ worth of components in the box.

Unusually for a Class D amp, he uses proper toroidal transformers in the power supply and lots of other high quality parts - as well as everything doubled up as the £5K price is for pair of mono amps.

Take a peek inside -
 

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