Step up transformer or new phono stage?

nak

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I'm contemplating a new tt and moving over to an MC cart. Never had one so know nothing about them.
I have a Puresound P10 phono stage at the moment. As I understand it I could either get an SUT and keep the P10 or a new MC phono stage.
I imagine there are pros and cons of each possibility and wondered if anyone can enlighten me.
 

Rockchild

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It depends on what cartridge your thinking of. It may dictate which route to go. If your new to MC’s, keeping it simple is the first and best way forward.
 
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Lurch

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I would say at this point in your MC journey I would go for a decent phonostage rather than a SUT. A decent SUT can be pretty expensive and are often suited to specific carts/makes of carts.
Another option would be a head amp from someone like Rothwell, that will plug into your P10, some HAs offer a straight forward 100 Ohm load, and others a range of loadings to suit different carts/sound signature preferences.
 
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DomT

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Do you like the sound of your P10 compared to other stages? By comparison to a Croft it’s very laid back. And compared to an Audio the Croft is more laid back. Maybe that’s your thing?

As Lurch has said care needs to be takes with an SUT but MCs are not always better. Plenty of people on here happily running an MM or MI. Am thinking about running an MM or MI in place of the £900 MC that I normally use.

What do you hope to gain from an MC or what don’t you like so much about what you have now?
 
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nak

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Do you like the sound of your P10 compared to other stages? By comparison to a Croft it’s very laid back. And compared to an Audio the Croft is more laid back. Maybe that’s your thing?

As Lurch has said care needs to be takes with an SUT but MCs are not always better. Plenty of people on here happily running an MM or MI. Am thinking about running an MM or MI in place of the £900 MC that I normally use.

What do you hope to gain from an MC or what don’t you like so much about what you have now?
I've not compared many phono stages at all. I had a built in stage in my first amp then a new amp without a phono meant I needed one so bought the P10 and I've had it ever since.
I've had a speaker demo today and tried a 2nd hand TT while I was there. That had an MC cart.
I enjoy the TT I have but it's old there's new shiny ones out there.
I'm curious if the grass is greener on the other side I suppose.
 

ClassikFan

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I swapped out my P10 and Ortofon 2M Black combo for a Chord Huei and Hana SL earlier in the summer thus moving from MM to MC and I couldn't be any happier.
 

DomT

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I've not compared many phono stages at all. I had a built in stage in my first amp then a new amp without a phono meant I needed one so bought the P10 and I've had it ever since.
I've had a speaker demo today and tried a 2nd hand TT while I was there. That had an MC cart.
I enjoy the TT I have but it's old there's new shiny ones out there.
I'm curious if the grass is greener on the other side I suppose.
I owned a seriously year old turntable for several years that beat almost everything out there. As have done or do many other wammers. New isn’t always better. I currently own a 35 year old and 3 year old turntable. You don’t list your current HiFi in the ‘about’ section of your profile so it’s difficult to comment more. What turntable and arm do you have?
 

nak

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I owned a seriously year old turntable for several years that beat almost everything out there. As have done or do many other wammers. New isn’t always better. I currently own a 35 year old and 3 year old turntable. You don’t list your current HiFi in the ‘about’ section of your profile so it’s difficult to comment more. What turntable and arm do you have?
It is listed. Not sure why it isn't showing.
It's an old Rega P3 with an rb300 arm and a Goldring 1012
 

rabski

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I agree with Lurch and others here. I like the P10, a lot. However, it has limitations. I'd personally move up the phono stage ladder before anything, then you'll be able to take advantage of a better cartridge.

An SUT that will do proper justice to suitable cartridges needs research and a fair bit of investment. It has to match the cartridge and not all cartridges perform well/better with an SUT (though equally many do).

In my experience, a lower cost SUT will generally sound worse than a lower-cost phono stage with higher gain setting for MCs. In addition, sorting out suitable cartridge loading requires some calculations and some fiddling. In some situations, an SUT actually prevents you from being able to set the correct loading. Further, SUTs can be utter noise magnets and require a lot of care with positioning. The additional grounding/ground lift and ground wiring is also an excellent way to get ground loop hum. And you need more cables, which need to be decent ones to avoid issues.

Don't get me wrong, IME a suitable and seriously good MC plus a seriously good SUT and seriously good phono stage can produce utter magic. I've been using SUTs for decades, but I build my own stuff and don't mind the associated chaos, it also means I can justify the cartridge and component cost, though it still hurts.
 

nak

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I agree with Lurch and others here. I like the P10, a lot. However, it has limitations. I'd personally move up the phono stage ladder before anything, then you'll be able to take advantage of a better cartridge.

An SUT that will do proper justice to suitable cartridges needs research and a fair bit of investment. It has to match the cartridge and not all cartridges perform well/better with an SUT (though equally many do).

In my experience, a lower cost SUT will generally sound worse than a lower-cost phono stage with higher gain setting for MCs. In addition, sorting out suitable cartridge loading requires some calculations and some fiddling. In some situations, an SUT actually prevents you from being able to set the correct loading. Further, SUTs can be utter noise magnets and require a lot of care with positioning. The additional grounding/ground lift and ground wiring is also an excellent way to get ground loop hum. And you need more cables, which need to be decent ones to avoid issues.

Don't get me wrong, IME a suitable and seriously good MC plus a seriously good SUT and seriously good phono stage can produce utter magic. I've been using SUTs for decades, but I build my own stuff and don't mind the associated chaos, it also means I can justify the cartridge and component cost, though it still hurts.
Makes perfect sense, thank you 👍🏻
 

Rockchild

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Starting off on the MC journey can be daunting. As I said before, don’t over complicate things. A badly matched MC/Phonostage and tonearm can be disastrous. I agree that a reasonable phonostage with decent loading options would be a good start as you can still use your current cartridge. There are many out there but shortlist three to try in your system with your current cartridge so you can see what the phonostage brings to the system. If you keep your Rega (and why not), consider cartridges from Audio Technica such as the OC series. They are a great match on your tonearm and when you wish to upgrade the deck, you can use the cartridge on a new turntable. AT OC’s are extremely capable on more expensive turntables.
 
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nak

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Like I say, I'm contemplating a new TT. I suppose I ought to go listen to some to see if the grass really is greener
 

DomT

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Like I say, I'm contemplating a new TT. I suppose I ought to go listen to some to see if the grass really is greener
A good turntable and arm with cheap cartridge normally sounds better than modest turntable with expensive cartridge. I would focus on the turntable first.
 
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Alvolake

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I have a P10, heavily breathed on but it does need a cartridge with impedance of at least 47K to sound at its best. As a valve amp it loves an MM with a relatively high output.
If you really want to try MC, look out for a Puresound T10 SUT - made to suit.
I used my P10 with a Hagerman Piccolo head amp and cartridges : Denon 103Pro, a 301, and a Troika but have now returned to the MM fold (A&RP77 with special tip). IMHO MCs are more trouble than they´re worth (none are worth what they cost) - so long as you respect the capacitance needs of your MM but an itch is an itch.
 
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Sotosound

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I agree about a change of TT first.

When I upgraded from a Thorens TD166 BC with an RB250 arm to a Nottingham Analogue ACE Spacedeck with an RB330 arm, I kept my Goldring 1042 cartridge, and despite not changing the cartridge there was a hugely noticeable uplift in sound quality, including loss of distortion and improved (but not overblown) bass weight. The benefit of improved pitch control and tracking, for instance, cannot be overstated. At present, I have no desire to change cartridges as I love the sound that I'm getting, but I also know that I now have a proper platform for doing this should I ever change my mind.

Have you considered upgrading your 1012 to 1042 next time you replace the stylus? That would achieve an improvement in sound. (I started out with a 1012 and worked my way up to a 1022 and then a 1042. Each upgrade was very worthwhile.) Might be an alternative to going MC, unless there is something seriously pushing you towards MC. For me and my ears, the TT upgrade also showed me just how good the 1042 is.

Regarding SUT versus various preamp options, perhaps your ears might help.

The main practical problems that I can see for you right now are: -

1) There are too many variables right now, and you need at least one stake in the ground. A new TT might be a good move whilst, perhaps, keeping the RB300.

2) Finding a dealer to fully support your journey might be problematic inasmuch as turntable and cartridge auditions are potentially the most costly and complex things for an audio dealer to support and manage. If this leaves you relying in part upon the advice of others, the best advice is likely to come from someone who really understands what floats your listening boat. Others might inadvertently offer advice that better floats their boat than yours.

Finally, if you did opt to replace your TT then you would need to consider how it would be used. For instance, would you just listen to LPs, or would you flip between 33 and 45 and therefore need easy speed changes? Are you a TT tweaker who does on-the-fly upgrades and loves to realign their cartridge, or do you prefer plug and play? Etc.

If it's just about getting at the music in the grooves then the best TT will be the one that you're likely to use the most. A super duper TT that's too complex for you in terms of use and maintenance could easily become just an expensive piece of furniture that gets dusted but not used.
(I did this with a bad telescope purchase. I went for an expensive Celestron Nexstar Evolution 8" Cassegrain telescope with computerised Go-To functionality etc. but found the set-up etc. too much of a faff; and there it sat. Meanwhile, I'd already donated my old Orion Europa 6" reflector with its basic equatorial mount that was so easy to carry out and point at the sky. Big mistake!)
 
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nak

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Some great advice gents thank you.

To give you a bit more background, I've always fancied a change of TT. Not that there's anything wrong with what i have but I have 3 that I'd like to try.
Nottingham Analogue spacedeck, Rega P8 and the Kuzma Stabi S.

I've been auditioning new speakers and there was a 2nd hand Kuzma available to try while I was there. It was very impressive but it had a daunting arm on it. It was a Viv Labs RF-7 tonearm and Ortofon SPU Royal N cartridge.

The experience has made me want to compare the others too, hence the original query.
 

Lurch

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In order to hear as many TTs as possible in a short time frame, I would get yourself along to the upcoming Wam show. You'll also be able to discuss face to face your sound signature preferences with experienced TT users.
 

DomT

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Some great advice gents thank you.

To give you a bit more background, I've always fancied a change of TT. Not that there's anything wrong with what i have but I have 3 that I'd like to try.
Nottingham Analogue spacedeck, Rega P8 and the Kuzma Stabi S.

I've been auditioning new speakers and there was a 2nd hand Kuzma available to try while I was there. It was very impressive but it had a daunting arm on it. It was a Viv Labs RF-7 tonearm and Ortofon SPU Royal N cartridge.

The experience has made me want to compare the others too, hence the original query.
Three completely different sounding turntables; which is a good thing. Listen to them with the same cartridge and try and make it a cheap MM one so that you are focused on the turntable and not the cartridge. Many dealers stock Ortofon 2M range.

The Notts analogue decks are very neutral and natural sounding and simple to maintain. It’s a great deck to then go with a wide range of arm and cartridge choices. If you can stretch to the Acespace deck then it’s a good idea as you can also add a ‘heavy’ kit later. I thought that the AceSpace deck was pretty special.

The Rega is really a closed system and you are stuck with their arm and there isn’t a lot of space for larger cartridges. But many people like what they do. (I briefly owned a P9).

I used to have a Kuzma arm but can’t remember anything about their decks.

Best of luck.
 
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