Streamer Upgrade?

Smonks

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I have a Wiim Pro which has served as my introduction to streaming - currently trialing Tidal but about to trial Qobuz which i think will be my preferred option.
I'm currently using the internal DAC within my Michi X3.

Looking to upgrade for an improvement in SQ and wondered whether an upgrade to a BS Node or a Cambridge Audio CXNV2 or similar would be a sideways move or give me some improvements over the Wiim.

I plan on upgrading to an external DAC in the future - likely Denafrips Venus II or Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE, and eventually would like to get either an an Auralic or Innuos so I can also start ripping my cd's.

Would there by any improvements to be had with a Node or similar in the meantime?
 
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hearhere

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I have a Wiim Pro which has served as my introduction to streaming - currently trialing Tidal but about to trial Qobuz which i think will be my preferred option.
I'm currently using the internal DAC within my Michi X3.

Looking to upgrade for an improvement in SQ and wondered whether an upgrade to a BS Node or a Cambridge Audio CXNV2 or similar would be a sideways move or give me some improvements over the Wiim.

I plan on upgrading to an external DAC in the future - likely Denafrips Venus II or Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE, and eventually would like to get either an an Auralic or Innuos so I can also start ripping my cd's.

Would there by any improvements to be had with a Node or similar in the meantime?
As you are planning to upgrade to an external DAC at some time, this will leave your Michi as a simple analogue integrated. Perhaps look towards a streamer that includes a good DAC. This should be a less costly job compared with a streamer and a stand-alone DAC of quality to match your Michi amp.

I wouldn't go for the Node. It's justifiably hugely popular but I suggest there are plenty of better (though more costly) streamers around. In fact the Node includes a DAC, likely lower quality than the one in your Michi, so go for an upmarket streamer with upmarket DAC (single box) with good quality outputs (XLR balanced) to feed the Michi if possible.

I'm also looking at the possibility of an upgrade from my excellent all-in-one NAD M33, but it will be very costly. Initially I was considering a streamer feeding a digital integrated such as the Michi (more likely a Hegel, Mark Levinson or Copland perhaps), but after a couple of demos of this combo, I'm now thinking of splitting differently - streamer/DAC/pre into power amp. This has one big advantage operationally - only one remote or app to control all streaming choices and volume adjustment. Having to use a separate remote to adjust volume stuck me as a PIA!
 

simon g

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As a digital source, a Node would be a sideways step, at best.

Save the money towards a decent streamer and DAC or a streamer/DAC.

Your amp is more than decent and you'll certainly be able to appreciate what an upgrade to your source will bring.
 
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Lurch

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As above, Node/CXN/Zen Mini would be a sideways move. You need something at the level of an Innuos Pulse/Zen, Auralic, Lumin etc, to warrant the spend and get a meaningful uplift in SQ. I f you want to go down the route of a separate DAC then the Holo Spring or similar would be the right way to go before upgrading the Wiim.
 

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Not wanting to hijack the thread, however I'm in a similar position.

i run a Wiim Mini, currently into a SMSL Dac which I will be upgrading in the next few months.

I cant get my head around what difference a upgraded streamer would make. Surely its just a stream of 1's & 0's and the DAC does all the difficult stuff?

Edit: BB & I posted at nearly identical times!
 

bencat

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Well for what it is worth and probably not that much . My main steamer is a Raspberry Pi 4 8gb running Picoreplayer as a Logitech Media Server only with 5v Sean Jacobs LPSU . This sounds excellent to my ears and neither a Linn or Naim server heard at home were any better . Recently I bought a Liv Zen which was the Innous server before they changed their name . This used Vortexbox to run LMS again powered by LPSU and I would not be able to tell the difference . Now it may well be that all the servers I have tried are not really far enough up the chain for any significant uplift . But looking at what price I need to pay to get better I think I will continue to faff about with the Pi and the Zen and see which one I will install .
 

simon g

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Not wanting to hijack the thread, however I'm in a similar position.

i run a Wiim Mini, currently into a SMSL Dac which I will be upgrading in the next few months.

I cant get my head around what difference a upgraded streamer would make. Surely its just a stream of 1's & 0's and the DAC does all the difficult stuff?

Edit: BB & I posted at nearly identical times!
This 'bits are bits' position has been often discussed on here and elsewhere. It's a pointless discussion. The only solution is to try it yourself. Many on here used to adopt that position but have modified their views in light of of experience.
 

simon g

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Well for what it is worth and probably not that much . My main steamer is a Raspberry Pi 4 8gb running Picoreplayer as a Logitech Media Server only with 5v Sean Jacobs LPSU . This sounds excellent to my ears and neither a Linn or Naim server heard at home were any better . Recently I bought a Liv Zen which was the Innous server before they changed their name . This used Vortexbox to run LMS again powered by LPSU and I would not be able to tell the difference . Now it may well be that all the servers I have tried are not really far enough up the chain for any significant uplift . But looking at what price I need to pay to get better I think I will continue to faff about with the Pi and the Zen and see which one I will install .
We're not really discussing servers here though, are we? The Pi is an end point, player or bridge. Differences in servers are much less than the differences between endpoints or players or bridges. For example, the differences between an Auralic Aries G2.1 and a Pi are significant. Whether they are 'value' to the user is a different discussion.
 

ChemMan

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How do the more expensive streamers sound better?
I cant get my head around what difference a upgraded streamer would make.
I'm in the midst of doing this right now and have tested,, in direct comparison with the Node, the Innuos Pulse and Zenith and an Aurender.

This has been covered ad nauseum on the forum, but if you look for my thread on "optimization of the digital source," you can read what some of the folks have to say, and what I experienced first hand.

From what I've learned, better streamers have different ways of reducing noise and jitter, which seem to be the main functions in addition to user friendly interfaces via the apps. @simon g hit it on the head -- you've got to listen for yourself. My latest demo comparing the Node and Innuos Zenith was all over the place, and as such, inconclusive. I'll need to get it home for a couple days and have a proper listen. Hopefully, Friday to Sunday this week.
 
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Brown Bottle

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This 'bits are bits' position has been often discussed on here and elsewhere. It's a pointless discussion. The only solution is to try it yourself. Many on here used to adopt that position but have modified their views in light of of experience.
Without having to trawl through previous discussions, I take it there's no technical explanation for the improvements, just people's experiences? Again I'm not stirring, I find long threads on technical apsects of hi-fi very boring.

Cheers BB
 

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Sorry Simon but my Pi is not used as a player at all they are all in the individual systems . The Pi 4 described is right next to my Router and connected wired from my network switch which is being fed via SFP optical connection . A 2TB SSD HD by Crucial is USB connected and this acts as the library for my LMS . I do honestly know the difference between a player and a server and mine is being used as a stand alone server in the same way that the LIV Zen is just a server .
 
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bencat

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I would agree that from my listening to date I have not been able to detect much of any by changing the server which is only outputting to the network not as some use servers with USB output to their DAC . I would very much agree that the player / DAC makes much greater difference but some ti.as I feel it is not as much as is stated . As with all things cost and your own views are what decide this in the end . For me I not convinced paying out lots for just a music server is the best use of my money so it will not happen .
 

ChemMan

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Without having to trawl through previous discussions, I take it there's no technical explanation for the improvements, just people's experiences? Again I'm not stirring, I find long threads on technical apsects of hi-fi very boring.

Cheers BB
You've got the various ways to get the digital signal to the DAC. Coax/Spdif. USB, AES, etc. How the streamer, from a timing sense, handles this transfer (the clock) is the jitter bit. Apparently good USB DACs mean the clock from the streamer is unimportant as it is done via a "cache" in the DAC and is internally clocked.

Power supplies introduce unwanted electrical noise into the signal path. Better streamers have Linear vs Switching power supplies. If interested, the bucket of water from the spicket analogy visualizes this nicely.

I'm sure there is more technical stuff out there, but this is what I know and understand. If very interested, there is a bloke out of Vancouver who is more of a skeptic and he has produced some tracks with large jitter for you to test out and see if you can hear the differences.
 
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Brown Bottle

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You've got the various ways to get the digital signal to the DAC. Coax/Spdif. USB, AES, etc. How the streamer, from a timing sense, handles this transfer (the clock) is the jitter bit. Apparently good USB DACs mean the clock from the streamer is unimportant as it is done via a "cache" in the DAC and is internally clocked.

Power supplies introduce unwanted electrical noise into the signal path. Better streamers have Linear vs Switching power supplies. If interested, the bucket of water from the spicket analogy visualizes this nicely.

I'm sure there is more technical stuff out there, but this is what I know and understand. If very interested, there is a bloke out of Vancouver who is more of a skeptic and he has produced some tracks with large jitter for you to test out and see if you can hear the differences.
Thanks ChemMan, just what I was looking for.

Cheers BB
 
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hearhere

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As important as the quality of the streamer/DAC/ pre is the competance of the control app that makes it all work. Many brand's offer poor apps or ones that work on very limited platforms (eg Andriod only) so this needs to be considered along with the streamer's sound quality.

The OP mentioned the Bluesound Node and it's huge popularity is largely down to the brilliant BluOS app that Bluesound, NAD and more recently a few other brands supply. This works on 5 platforms plus Alexa and other verbal devices if that's of interest.

If you ignore this factor when selecting a streamer, you'll quite likely to be dis-satified and then be looking to use Room to get around the problem - requiring more hardware and a subscription.
 

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I would buy the Cambridge 851 N second hand . It's a streamer / dac and upsamples to 384 kHz . If you don't like it there is big fan club and you could probably flip it back with no financial loss. I use one and demo'd something 4 times its price and yes it wasn't as good but it certainly wasn't bested.
 

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I would buy the Cambridge 851 N second hand . It's a streamer / dac and upsamples to 384 kHz . If you don't like it there is big fan club and you could probably flip it back with no financial loss. I use one and demo'd something 4 times its price and yes it wasn't as good but it certainly wasn't bested.
^ This
 

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I would buy the Cambridge 851 N second hand . It's a streamer / dac and upsamples to 384 kHz . If you don't like it there is big fan club and you could probably flip it back with no financial loss. I use one and demo'd something 4 times its price and yes it wasn't as good but it certainly wasn't bested.
^ This +2

I too use an 851N, which is great. I have also used a CXN before, as has @Rockchild and others and there is a very clear margin jump in performance from a CXN (mentioned above) up to the 851N. There is a Cambridge stream somewhere of others, like me, who have before also done this.
 
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