Question Surface noise

[FizzyPickles]

What is it about certain cartridges that makes them far more susceptible to picking up the snap, crackle and pop of surface noise than others? I'm presuming that it is surface noise.

 

[DUVET]

Noise floors on catridges exist of course but snap and crackle mostly means the record needs a clean and exessive surface noise is more to do with pressing of the record .

 

[Lawrence001]

Some cartridges (or technically styluses) track better than others though and I wonder if there's a correlation between tracking and noise. Whether a better tracker would be more susceptible to surface noise or less I'm not sure though. Could compliance and mass also play a part?

 

[Jazid]

Stylus topology is probably the biggest factor I suspect. Different stylus shapes sit or run on different parts of the groove and, all things being equal (which they never are) , will pick up dust and imperfections avoided or rubbed in by previous styli. In my sad experience a lot of these imperfections are damn near impossible to clean away. Duvet's moniker is your guiding light here, and a healthy bank balance to engage with it of course

 

[Sotosound]

I found that a lot of surface noise disappeared from my records when I changed TT and arm from a Thorens TD-166 BC with an RB250 arm to a Nottingham Analogue ACE spacedeck with an RB330 arm whilst retaining my Goldring 1042 cartridge.

So susceptibility to surface noise isn't just a cartridge and stylus thing.

 

[labhrass]

the noise problem is related to the shape of your stylus for sure. I swapped an Audio Tecnica AT100E for a Technics EPC 270C cart recently and that made a big difference...some discs were unlistenable with the AT. So experiment.

 

[rockmeister]

It's a tad complex.
Stylus profile: yes, complex shapes dig further into the groove, where they discover dirt and scratches previously undisturbed on playback by simpler shapoed stylus. However,
The dirt and scratches are not always deep down. So it's also how much detail a stylus is retrieving and how loud it plays certain bits of the frequency range,

Then you have the state of your records, recording quality, you cleaning regime and
and
and...
You shouldn't really be getting a LOT of noise IF,
your records are wet cleaned and stored in anti static sleeves, and,
if your stylus profile is not well known for being very 'revealing'.
If you whole system prides itself on digging every last ounce ot detail out of the groove, AND you records are badly kept, scratched and dirty?
Try fishing.

 

[Warszawa]

Shibata for the win.

 

[rabski]

Shibata for the win.

Or microline.

You would imagine that a stylus profile that digs deeper into the groove would pick up more noise, but I've always found the opposite.

If you think about it, it's the signal to noise ratio. A fineline, shibata or microline contacts much more of the vertical surfaces of the groove, so there is more 'music'.

 

[Jazid]

My old records are fine. It's the cr*p I have bought in the last 10 years that hurts my ears. It's either fat, noisy records on "audiophile pressings" or mangled second-hand grooves due to many happy dansette moments. I can easily forgive the latter.

Re. a previous poster I am confused how an arm and deck change affects surface noise. Not at all saying it doesnt, just wondering how, unless due to subtle changes to VTA/ tracking weight etc?

 

[lazycat]

My old records are fine. It's the cr*p I have bought in the last 10 years that hurts my ears. It's either fat, noisy records on "audiophile pressings" or mangled second-hand grooves due to many happy dansette moments. I can easily forgive the latter.

Re. a previous poster I am confused how an arm and deck change affects surface noise. Not at all saying it doesnt, just wondering how, unless due to subtle changes to VTA/ tracking weight etc?

Motor noise can be affected by the power supply - see upgrade for Linn, Technics etc.

I upgraded mine for my SL1210 last year. It was a punt because I didn't have any issues with the original. I have to say that the, already low, noise floor dropped. As it did when I replaced the bearing thrust plate/implemented the wax mod - from KAB.

The motor/bearing is obviously running more smoothly and leads to less noise being transmitted to the record. I heard the better LP12 p/s as well and was quite surprised about the improvement.

As for the tonearm - lower resonances due to a better/more complex design has the same effect. As do higher quality arm bearings - the arm is more stable so allowing the cartridge to gain more signal, rather than noise, due to better tracking.

 

[Lawrence001]

I'm not sure that things that improve the signal to noise ratio are always necessarily beneficial when it comes to surface noise, as the latter for a record can be part of the signal rather than the noise.

If a record is scratched or has dirt on it, this is signal as far at the stylus is concerned, unlike say motor rumble. Equally, a poor noisy pressing will be in the signal.

 

[lazycat]

I'm not sure that things that improve the signal to noise ratio are necessarily always beneficial when it comes to surface noise, as the latter for a record can be part of the signal rather than the noise.

You're probably right. I'm sure a proper, or indeed any, engineer will be along and explain it better than myself.

 

[Lawrence001]

You're probably right. I'm sure a proper, or indeed any, engineer will be along and explain it better than myself.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I think it depends exactly what the noise is. Some noise (as measured by signal to noise ratio) could sound like surface noise, or be called surface noise if it's a tracking issue. But a more resolving TT/arm/cart might let more of the noise I mean that's technically in the signal through, like dirt and scratches.

So if you have loads of scratched or dirty records you can't or won't clean you're probably better off getting a deck that's less resolving.

 

[lazycat]

But a more resolving TT/arm/cart might let more of the noise I mean that's technically in the signal through, like dirt and scratches.

So if you have loads of scratched or dirty records you can't or won't clean you're probably better off getting a deck that's less resolving.

But IME the converse is true. The more resolving the turntable, the less noise there is or rather there's more music. I noticed this, when young, going quickly up the ladder to a LP12.

I haven't really been plagued by clicks/pops for decades TBH.

Any half decent T/T using a decent cartridge, well aligned, gives the same results. If the record is knackered obviously there will be some.

But I have bought lots of 2nd hand stuff over the past 15 years and all except 1 have cleaned up well and have very little noise after thr run-in groove. I do wish I'd bought a RCM many yrs earlier.

As for noisy, new vinyl - I haven't had a problem.

Warps tho'

 

[FizzyPickles]

What prompted my asking the question: I've been playing my vinyl with a Nagaoka MP-110. I replaced it with the Ortofon 2M Red that came with the tt. Same tt, same arm, same headshell, same records. The crackle & pop on one particular record was incredible. It sounded like I'd used it to catch my beard trimmings - OK, an exaggeration but I was somewhat taken aback tbh.
I'm thinking of upgrading the stylus to a 2M Blue. Just wondering if these carts are particularly susceptible to what I am hearing.
I keep my vinyl pretty clean but I might give the one in question a wet clean and see.

 

[rdale]

What prompted my asking the question: I've been playing my vinyl with a Nagaoka MP-110. I replaced it with the Ortofon 2M Red that came with the tt. Same tt, same arm, same headshell, same records. The crackle & pop on one particular record was incredible. It sounded like I'd used it to catch my beard trimmings - OK, an exaggeration but I was somewhat taken aback tbh.
I'm thinking of upgrading the stylus to a 2M Blue. Just wondering if these carts are particularly susceptible to what I am hearing.
I keep my vinyl pretty clean but I might give the one in question a wet clean and see.

I had a 2M Blue and I found the biggest problem with it was exaggerated surface noise. The 2M Black I upgraded to didn’t suffer from it though.

 

[BalooToo]

Not had much experience of Otofon cartridges above an OM 20 but I would say that the Nagaoka Mp-110 is normally very quiet as far as surface noise is concerned. I have had the MP-11 MP-11 Boron and MP-110 after years of playing with different cartridges including some expensive MCs I ended up returning to Nagaoka for the type of vinyl I was mostly playing, ie bought in the 70s 80s and 90s.
Of course that is just my personal experience others may disagree.

 

[FizzyPickles]

Not had much experience of Otofon cartridges above an OM 20 but I would say that the Nagaoka Mp-110 is normally very quiet as far as surface noise is concerned. I have had the MP-11 MP-11 Boron and MP-110 after years of playing with different cartridges including some expensive MCs I ended up returning to Nagaoka for the type of vinyl I was mostly playing, ie bought in the 70s 80s and 90s.
Of course that is just my personal experience others may disagree.

I like the Nagaoka, it's not the most detailed but it seems to manage everything comfortably.

 

[BalooToo]

I like the Nagaoka, it's not the most detailed but it seems to manage everything comfortably.

That has been my experience, no doubt if you have an absolutely pristine vinyl collection there are much better cartridges available but my vinyl collection had been through countless all night parties and ham fisted drunken mates over the years and although I had an RCM I just found the Nagaoka played music very well! Now I am rebuilding a record collection I am going to be buying S/H records a lot so the first thing I did was buy a MP-110. Since found a MP-11 Boron and I am very tempted to try it with the MP-200 stylus when I have finished my new deck I am building.