The 2 cents I've learnt on the diffusion vs absorption debate

newlash09

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As many here might be aware. I treated my room for bass in 2021 with stellar results. However the front and side walls haven't yet been treated, due to conflicting information on use of absorbers and diffusers. So I spent quite a bit of time in 2022 reading up on the subject.

The pro's in the business, in my observation, seldom ever reveal the tricks of their trade. So it was time consuming to peice together small smatterings of information from different posts on different forums to peice the below together.

And as can be seen after reading below, the choice between absorption and diffusion is dependent on distances ( diffuser to speaker and diffuser to listener) and surface area available. Where diffusion can't be used, absorption will work. As long as its not overdone to make the room sound dead by over damping.


The purpose of treating our room :

1. To arrange the placement of our speakers and listening position in such a way, that the primary reflections ( first reflections) reach our ears 15 milliseconds after the direct sound from the speakers. Converting 15 milli seconds into distance, give us 5.1 mtrs or 17 ft.
So if "distance from speaker baffle to first reflection point" + "distance from first reflection point to ear" - distance from speaker baffle to listeners ear >17 ft. Then no treatment is required at this first reflection point.

2. However in small rooms, the above required 17 ft will not be possible. So the solution then is to treat the first reflection point, with either absorption or diffusion such that the amplitude of the reflected sound is 10 dB less than the amplitude of the direct sound from the speaker.

3. So absorbtion or diffusion at first reflection point - The recommended ratio between absorption vs diffusion vs reflection ( bare walls or ceiling) is 33%:33%:33%. And that's simply not possible in a domestic environment.

So, the idea is to use equal amounts of both. However, by equal amounts, we mean equal effective area and not equal surface area. The max effeciency of a diffuser is taken as 0. 6 NRC, where as a proper absorber designed for that same frequency can have a NRC of 1.0. Which means, for every 1 SQ.ft of absorption used, we will need 1.66 SQ. Ft of diffusion to have the same effect. Thus, diffusion will take up more surface area than absorption. Thus, absorption is recommended for smaller rooms.

4. 1D or quadratic diffusers - These are the easiest DIY diffusers with plans readily available online. Every quadratic diffuser is designed with a target frequency range in mind. The lower frequency where the diffusion starts is called as its design frequency. Let us take an example of a 5 inch deep quadratic diffuser, whose effective frequency usually starts at 900 hz. The wave length of a 900 hz sound wave is 37 cms. We multiply this by 3, to get 1.11 mtrs.

So we should not have any sound source or listener within a distance of 1.11 mtr from the boundaries of a, quadratic diffuser. A quadratic diffuser is called as a RPG - reflection phase grating. The phase of the diffused wave is offset from the direct sound. And when source or listener are within 3 wave lengths of the diffuser, then the interaction between the direct and reflected sound will cause a tingy note to the treble and will damage imaging of the system.

I have previously read that diffusers have to be placed at a minimum of 8 ft from the listener. Then recently on a different forum, a designer of studio's mentioned that he would never use a quadratic diffuser, unless the listener was at least 10 millisecs from the quadratic diffuser. That translates to 3.4 mtrs or 11.3 ft. But since he was referring to a studio where 100% acoustics are required, I would like to think that for a domestic small room 8 ft might be doable

5. 2D or skyline diffusers - Where room size doesn't permit quadratic diffusers, due to close proximity of speakers or the listener, the skyline diffusers come to the rescue. The skyline diffusers are less effective than quadratic diffusers, but don't come with a minimum distance requirement that I've seen so far. Actually skylines don't diffuse, they apparently only work via staggered reflection. So these can be used without a minimum distance requirement probably. But I would still stick with a minimum of 8 feet distance to the ear in my room, because it is possible at 2 points.

6. Another types of diffusers recommended for small rooms are poly diffusers. These look like a half cylindrical PVC pipe. And the inside can be stuffed with glass wool to absorb bass as well. These poly's don't alter the phase, and thus don't have a minimum recommended distance again.

7. I've saved the best for the last - RPG BAD - Binary amplitude diffusers - these are patented by RPG systems, and haven't seen same being offered by anyone else. These are thin, almost 1 inch thick panels, with a, mathematically calculated cuts in the baffle plate They diffuse from mid frequencies upwards and absorb bass at the same time. So these would be most ideal.

8. The first reflective point treatments, only come after bass treatment. Unless RT60 times below 400 hz are brought down below 0.5 secs. We won't be able to hear the full benefits of the panels at first reflection points.
 
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newlash09

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Very interesting.

You've convinced me.
It's headphones from now on. 😝
I was meaning to write the above for sometime now. However, since your goodselves posted about getting diffusers for your front wall, thought I'd finally spit it all out today 🤣🤣🤣.

Might also benefit @DomT who is also planning his room treatments currently. Though iam sure that what I've posted above is just the tip of the iceberg. So due caution is still advised 😜😜
 
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rdale

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I was meaning to write the above for sometime now. However, since your goodselves posted about getting diffusers for your front wall, thought I'd finally spit it all out today 🤣🤣🤣.

Might also benefit @DomT who is also planning his room treatments currently. Though iam sure that what I've posted above is just the tip of the iceberg. So due caution is still advised 😜😜
I think you need to stop reading about diffusers and actually install some and listen to what effect they have! You can’t go wrong with some expanded polystyrene skyline diffusers like the Vicoustic Multifuser DC3 at the front behind the speakers. You can paint them with water based paint, although I haven’t tried that yet.
 
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JANDL100

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Actually, it was a very interesting read.

And yes I do see some experimentation upcoming with diffusion panels behind my omni speakers.

I rather fancy an adhoc rather than a scientific approach. At least to start with.
Something along the lines of these "rustic" wood panels maybe.
(They're a lot cheaper than pukka audiophile panels, as well!). They look like they've got a lot of random angles covered. A side view shows them to be usefully 3D and slanted.

1674896009307.png

My only real issue is aesthetic - they have to be to my visual as well as sonic tastes
 

rdale

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Actually, it was a very interesting read.

And yes I do see some experimentation upcoming with diffusion panels behind my omni speakers.

I rather fancy an adhoc rather than a scientific approach. At least to start with.
Something along the lines of these "rustic" wood panels maybe.
(They're a lot cheaper than pukka audiophile panels, as well!). They look like they've got a lot of random angles covered. A side view shows them to be usefully 3D and slanted.

1674896009307.png

My only real issue is aesthetic - they have to be to my visual as well as sonic tastes
The shape of diffusers is scientifically calculated, they are not random and the above panel won’t work as a skyline diffuser.
 
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newlash09

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The shape of diffusers is scientifically calculated, they are not random and the above panel won’t work as a skyline diffuser.
+1 to the above 😛
 

JANDL100

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The shape of diffusers is scientifically calculated, they are not random and the above panel won’t work as a skyline diffuser.
I absolutely get that.

But I've enough of a scientific background to know that theory often needs a lot of contextual information to actually be able to predict reality.

I suspect you need to do a full room measurement to do the job properly, and just bunging a few audiophile approved diffuser panels on the wall isn't going to cut it.
 
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rdale

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I absolutely get that.

But I've enough of a scientific background to know that theory often needs a lot of contextual information to actually be able to predict reality.

I suspect you need to do a full room measurement to do the job properly, and just bunging a few audiophile approved diffuser panels on the wall isn't going to cut it.
It is quite hard to measure the effect of diffusers, but then you can easily hear the effect. I haven’t read about anyone installing diffusers on the basis of measurements.
 
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MartinC

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1. To arrange the placement of our speakers and listening position in such a way, that the primary reflections ( first reflections) reach our ears 15 milliseconds after the direct sound from the speakers. Converting 15 milli seconds into distance, give us 5.1 mtrs or 17 ft.
So if "distance from speaker baffle to first reflection point" + "distance from first reflection point to ear" > 17 ft. Then no treatment is required at this first reflection point.
I'm afraid this first point isn't quite right. The time window to consider is the time from when the direct signal arrives from the speakers, so it's the difference between the distance of the speakers from the listening position and the total reflected path that needs to be considered, rather than just the reflected path length. The upshot is that reflections are still an issue in much larger rooms that the quoted calculation suggests.

You'll get different views on the time window and level of attenuation too of course, with no 'correct' one. One I've seen more is a '20/20' rule of no reflections within 20 dB of the direct signal within the first 20 ms.
 

JANDL100

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It is quite hard to measure the effect of diffusers, but then you can easily hear the effect. I haven’t read about anyone installing diffusers on the basis of measurements.
That's interesting.
So what's the scientific basis for the carefully crafted panels if the effects aren't measurable?
Is there one?
It does all seem a bit adhoc with lots of different rules of thumb floating around.
 

rdale

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That's interesting.
So what's the scientific basis for the carefully crafted panels if the effects aren't measurable?
Is there one?
I’m sure that the people who design diffusers usually measure them, or at least calculate the lengths of parts that go into them. But you can’t just measure the effect from a fixed microphone position, as it’s like measuring the dispersion pattern of a speaker which is quite hard to do.
 
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MartinC

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As it happens I plan to be progressing my own room treatment significantly over the coming week. As described above, a key balance is managing to use acoustic treatment without making the room too dead (to short RT60 times). The last time I experimented with absorbers at lots of early reflection points in combination with multiple corner absorbers to address low frequencies I did end up with an unpleasantly dead sounding result. My new plan therefore has two stages:

  1. Use hardboard covering to significantly reduce the higher frequency absorption of my bass traps.
  2. Make early reflection point panels that are no larger than then need to be (e.g. last time I had one 1200 mm x 600 mm gobo where a 600 mm square panel would have sufficed).
The idea is for step one to provide enough decay time 'headroom' for step two to hopefully bring benefits without making the overall result too dead.

I'll be posting results of how I get on in time...
 
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MartinC

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That's interesting.
So what's the scientific basis for the carefully crafted panels if the effects aren't measurable?
Is there one?
It does all seem a bit adhoc with lots of different rules of thumb floating around.

There's a lot of maths and modeling behind proper diffusers, and lots of products sold as diffusers that aren't based on this that have questionable value as a result. As @rdale says, my understanding is that it's difficult to test diffusion with measurements, with no simple standard test I'm aware of anyway.

In terms of the distance diffusion needs to be from the listener I'll just say this will depend on the specific diffuser, in part depending on the frequency range it covers (you could sit closer to higher frequency diffusers). I did recently ask GIK Acoustics how far you'd need to be from their Alpha or Impression series of diffuser/absorber panels and the answer I got was a minimum of about 1 m.
 

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I have an interest in this topic and would like to know if loudness levels have ay effect on the amount of sound modifying materials used?
 

newlash09

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I'm afraid this first point isn't quite right. The time window to consider is the time from when the direct signal arrives from the speakers, so it's the difference between the distance of the speakers from the listening position and the total reflected path that needs to be considered, rather than just the reflected path length. The upshot is that reflections are still an issue in much larger rooms that the quoted calculation suggests.

You'll get different views on the time window and level of attenuation too of course, with no 'correct' one. One I've seen more is a '20/20' rule of no reflections within 20 dB of the direct signal within the first 20 ms.
Fully agree... I thought it would be obvious that the difference of 15ms is between the direct and reflected sound. Anyways will amend the post to make it more clear. Thanks 😀👍
 
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MartinC

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I have an interest in this topic and would like to know if loudness levels have ay effect on the amount of sound modifying materials used?

They don't. Under any normal conditions anyway.
 

newlash09

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I have an interest in this topic and would like to know if loudness levels have ay effect on the amount of sound modifying materials used?
Yes they do. As we increase the volume. We load the room with more sound energy. So the decay times start increasing with volume. So it is imperative, that room measurements are made at the usual listening volume. As at any other volume, either less or more than this volume, the decay times across the frequency range will change.
 

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