They don’t make ‘em like this any more! The do-it-all Denon PMA 850

culturecrammer

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Two weeks ago I joined a very select club by getting hold of a Denon PMA 850, a behemoth vintage solid state amplifier that was top of Denon’s line from 1977 to 1979.

The catalyst for this leap into the dark was finally acquiring my dream speakers, a pair of Shahinian Obelisk Mk 2s. It quickly became apparent that my trusty Rega Elicit couldn’t quite cut it with the Obs, which are notoriously difficult to drive – despite claiming a nominal impedance of 6ohm, their four top mounted super tweeters and two midrange tweeters tend to hover around the 2ohm mark.  While they made a nice sound with the Rega overall, some strain was evident particularly in the higher frequencies.

Having already stretched to get the Obs, I was dismayed by the prospect of shelling out for a high current amp that could handle them (no, I handn’t thought this through :D ).  Some forums (not this one!) were full of bullish Obs owners insisting I’d have to rig them up to Battersea power station to get them sounding as they should. I considered a used Dynavector at one point, but it was still going to be costly once I factored in a suitable preamp. If only there was an affordable integrated that could do the job!  Enter the Denon PMA 850.

Some of you will no doubt be familiar with the Denon through Geoff Old (Oldious of this Parish) who has championed the amp since it became a cornerstone of his own system.  Were it not for Geoff I would never in a million years have considered a 40+  year old amplifier with no remote - and a Denon to boot!

There was one – just one – for sale – on eBay, a minty-looking example from a reputable vintage hi fi seller in Spain.  It arrived safely, with battleship build quality and in amazing nick for its age. There were a few teething issues as it settled into my system – realising I needed a new digital cable, fine-tuning my TT to suit a much more revealing setup, etc.  Once I’d banished these gremlins I really started to bond with the amp.  The first thing you notice is its sense of authority and grip – it controls the Obs impeccably from top to bottom and really makes them sing .  There’s nothing ‘seventies’ about this kit. It sounds thoroughly contemporary - precise, neutral and highly resolving, with a refined and imperturbable treble and deep, firm bass. It gets straight to the heart of the music and communicates exactly what’s going on.

The internal phono stage is superlative. It reminds me of the stage on a Leema amp I once had, but better. My Arcam R Phono, while cracking for the money, cannot compete.  The PMA 850 hails from an era when amps lived or died on their phono stages, and I reckon you’d be talking serious cash to equal it with an external stage. The icing on the cake is the fabulous headphone stage, which has made my Graham Slee destined for the classifieds.

After a week or so, out of curiosity I tried the Rega back in my system.  The Elicit is a great amp, but it was clear the older amp was in a different league. With my Rega and warm Revolver speakers, I could never hear that much difference between Red book and high res streams/downloads – now I can. Next up, once the lockdown ends, is to get it serviced and recapped to ensure I can continue to enjoy it for decades to come.

Including the anticipated cost of the recap, after the sale of the Rega, the Arcam and the Graham Slee, I will still be quids-in (Actually that’s not quite true - my Ikea rack is now looking decidedly wobbly from the weight of this thing so I’m going to have to fork out on something more robust, a proper grown up hi fi rack!)

Between the amp and the Obs, I feel I finally have the kind of sound I’ve wanted since I went to a hifi show in Manchester 11 years ago and came out thinking I had to get me some of that.  I was beginning to think that kind of sound was only achievable for the well-off, but with the Denon I feel I have managed to cheat the system!

In today’s money the Denon would have cost somewhere around £2,500 - £3,000 when it came out.  It was at a time when Denon were a company with something to prove and they really overengineered this amp, which must be one of the best integrateds of any era.

To anyone like me who is long in hi-fi ambition but short on cash, I say: if you can find one, get one.

Thanks to Geoff for his patient and wise advice  :^ :notworthy:

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oldius

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I am thrilled this has worked out for you. It is funny that what I actually did say was don't spend any money until you've worked out what the problem with your system is! Then when you did work it out, you obviously bit the bullet and purchased the Denon, even though I recommended several high quality integrated amps.

I have been a fan of this amplifier for some time now, nine years I think I have owned it for, and for the reasons you describe. It has driven a very wide range of speakers for me and it has driven every single pair well. It consistently delivers an excellent quality from every source; the three input phono stage is a revelation and you are right about the headphone socket, it is ridiculously good and I know that you believe it to be a lot better than the £700 headphone amp you have. I remember the first time I plugged my headphones in and it gave me a 'bloody hell' moment.

This amp was over engineered. It has a large, independently wound transformer; four bloody big caps; dual mono configeration; a self adjusting three input phono stage; 2 tape inputs and a deliciously good headphone socket. I think it looks great in your system and I am so happy that it has slotted in so well. Congratulations.

 
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oldius

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Am intrigued by this amp and would love to hear one some time. Wondering how it would compare to my Marantz PM11S2. 

Great thread!
I am back in the UK in July and I would be happy to invite you for a listen. I know of five of these amps on the Wam - Culturecrammer, Oldius, Spider, Idlewithnodrive and RSand. I am sure one or more of them may contribute their thoughts.

 
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culturecrammer

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Cheers Mike. It was faith in Geoff’s ears basically! :D  In fairness to him he didn’t specifically push the Denon but suggested the vintage Japanese amp route and offered a number of examples. But I knew he had heard the Denon with Obs back when he owned them and it was important to know that synergy was there. Plus as I researched the amp for myself I found every PMA 850 owner talking in the same terms about what this thing could do.

 
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lordmortlock

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Great thread, I’ve had a few vintage SOTA amps and they’re usually great fun. @Idlewithnodrive, Mike, how does this compare to the Marantz pm4 out of interest? Or, say that well thought of Lentek integrated if anyone has owned both? 

 

oldius

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I own a Lentek and a Denon PMA850 and both are in use. 

I know that Andyrlb has just described the Lentek as possibly his final amp and his words, "Like my PM4 on steroids." 

The two amps are excellent designs. I find it hard to choose between them but I would choose the Denon if I had to keep one. The reason is that is far less fussy about speakers and sounds excellent with everything I have had it with. It is also less fussy about music, which is really important if you like the range of music that I do. The Lentek is fussier and more hifi but is utterly brilliant if well matched.

 

Idlewithnodrive

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Great thread, I’ve had a few vintage SOTA amps and they’re usually great fun. @Idlewithnodrive, Mike, how does this compare to the Marantz pm4 out of interest? Or, say that well thought of Lentek integrated if anyone has owned both? 
I sold the PM-4 once I had the Denon Jake; the PM-4 is a lovely amp, but the Denon better imo. I also owned the Lentek integrated many moons ago and audio memory being what it is, I can't directly compare.

The Lentek is also good, though.

 

lordmortlock

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Nice one chaps, that’s good feedback. I often come back to the idea of a statement integrated amp as a one box solution. @culturecrammer, is yours 220v? There’s a minty one on eBay in France but that’s got to be top coin right?

 
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culturecrammer

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Nice one chaps, that’s good feedback. I often come back to the idea of a statement integrated amp as a one box solution. @culturecrammer, is yours 220v? There’s a minty one on eBay in France but that’s got to be top coin right?
Yes, 220v. It’s more than I paid, but if I’d known what I know now and that was the price I’d still have had it and considered it a bargain!  

 
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culturecrammer

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I own a Lentek and a Denon PMA850 and both are in use. 

I know that Andyrlb has just described the Lentek as possibly his final amp and his words, "Like my PM4 on steroids." 

The two amps are excellent designs. I find it hard to choose between them but I would choose the Denon if I had to keep one. The reason is that is far less fussy about speakers and sounds excellent with everything I have had it with. It is also less fussy about music, which is really important if you like the range of music that I do. The Lentek is fussier and more hifi but is utterly brilliant if well matched.
I have stupidly eclectic tastes - 12,000 plus albums spanning classic rock, dub/reggae, funk,soul, jazz, electronica, indie punk and new wave, pop, classical, opera, hip hop, Folk, African music, etc etc - so I need an amp that can do all of this equally well. The PMA 850 does that.

 

oldius

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I have stupidly eclectic tastes - 12,000 plus albums spanning classic rock, dub/reggae, funk,soul, jazz, electronica, indie punk and new wave, pop, classical, opera, hip hop, Folk, African music, etc etc - so I need an amp that can do all of this equally well. The PMA 850 does that.
That's part of the reason I like it so much. I want music to lead my system, not my system to dictate the music I can play and enjoy.

 
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culturecrammer

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One mystery I would like to solve is this – on paper, the Denon shouldn’t drive the Obs any better than my Rega did. When it comes to driving difficult loads, I know it’s a matter of current rather than watts. As I understand it, the wisdom goes that the better an amp's power supply is, the closer that amp comes to doubling its power from 8 ohms to 4 ohms.  Therefore an amp with a much lower wattage rating at 8ohm could still be higher current that an amp with a much higher wattage rating at 80hm, as long as it came closer to doubling when the impedance halves. 

The Denon, which the specs say goes from 85w to 110w when the impedance halves, responds with a seemingly pathetic 29% increase!  I think my Rega performed better at 4 ohms than that. But in practice the extra power in the Denon is unmistakable. 

I’ve heard it said that one sure way to tell if an amp is high current is it will be difficult to carry up the stairs, and that’s certainly true of the Denon!

But I’d love to know how it can be that the performance is so much better than the specs suggest. Someone on here must know?

 
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oldius

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I suspect the specs may be conservative - I'm pretty sure that site said that it measured at 100W per channel in to 8, yet it is rated at 85W.

If you look at the internals compared to the Rega, the transformer and caps are twice the size - I often find that is a good yardstick.

 

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