TT/Cart upgrade ?

Ian

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This really is a speculative post at this stage, but any views would be gratefully received. TTs and carts aren't my Hi Fi comfort zone in terms of knowledge and experience.

I recently acquired a Tron Convergence phono stage to go between my Project Classic TT/Goldring 1042 and Leben CS300xs. The Tron is very more than likely capable of greater things but the Leben is going nowhere. I'm very happy with the sonic outcome.

So the mind turns to upgrading the vinyl front end, and the following factors come to mind:

- I'm currently not unhappy, to the contrary in fact
- I don't really know what I want to achieve
- the above apart, there is potential here
- I'd rather not replace the TT in the short term
- The Goldring is a well regarded cart, would spending £500 or so on an 'upgrade' really be an upgrade ?
- Buying used - I commonly buy used gear, but have real reservations about buying a used cart. The number of 'low hours' used carts out there seems disproportionate !

Any views on this somewhat unfocussed scenario would be most welcome :)
 

CageyH

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A new £500 cart is not going to be much different than what you have. You could buy a spare stylus, or an upgraded Audio Note stylus. I believe they use the same body, but you would need to check.

At the end of the day, if you are happy, leave it alone and buy more vinyl.
 

Brown Bottle

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Stop looking at LP12s. If you’re not contemplating changing the deck then it’s just tinkering. The Goldring is highly regarded as a MM carts go and I don’t think you can change your tonearm can you? You don’t really have much room for improvement with your current set up imho without going to a MC cart and you’d need a step up wouldn’t you.

I bet you have a new TT this time next year.

Cheers BB
 
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Rockchild

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Hi Ian
Not sure what vinyl you have but it also suffers from poor pressings and poorly recorded music so investigate some known decent recordings that you current set up can exploit.
When you have a benchmark, then you can compare but tbh, what you currently have is very decent and to see a marked improvement, you would need to spend considerably more. £500 would sound different not better.
 

Wenge1

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I think the answer to your general question is no; and for a change it's pretty black and white IMHO. Your current cart is well balanced with respect to your deck. Any benefit from upgrading your cart is going to be held back by your turntable and its accompanying arm and would therefore not be cost effective.

When you also bear in mind that you are very happy with the sound of your vinyl system as it currently exists (and it's no slouch by the way) it does not make much sense to upgrade your cart. Carry on and enjoy your vinyl and maybe get some more.

For the future and as Brown Bottle has said, if your determined to upgrade, it's the whole turntable you need to look at. You would need a decent amount of vinyl to make that a 'reasonable' proposition but hey, who said any of us are reasonable when it comes to this hobby or should that be obsession ...... :ROFLMAO:
 

Ian

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Solid and logical advice, thank you. And to be fair after 12 hours the Tron is going from great to greater !
 

DomT

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Ian I used to run an Old Michel deck and a custom Lenco with a phonostage that was at the same level as yours. I then bought a Raven AC with first a Graham Phanton arm then and SME V. But it didn’t improve things over the Lenco and I sold it after 18 months. You might find a turntable that you enjoy more than yours but it might not necessarily cost a lot more money. Or you may do what I did and make a bid mistake; fortunately I had bought secondhand so it wasn’t so bad. But the Luxman PD171 that I bought is just wonderful.

I did find though that I liked Koetsus and also bought a Dynavector DRT1S. Wow! Some say not to try an exotic cartridge on a more modest deck but it worked for me on the Lenco.

You seem to be on a bit of a mission recently and why not as we only live once. Your system can easily take either a better cartridge or a better deck. These days I prefer the idea of a better deck and arm as they are not consumables like a cartridge.

@Rockchild seems happy with the new Thorens deck, I would also suggest any of the new Luxmans, SME Model 10, Well Tempered, Notts Analogue Hyperspace, Custom Lenco or other Idler or a Technics SL1200G
 

Ian

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Ian I used to run an Old Michel deck and a custom Lenco with a phonostage that was at the same level as yours. I then bought a Raven AC with first a Graham Phanton arm then and SME V. But it didn’t improve things over the Lenco and I sold it after 18 months. You might find a turntable that you enjoy more than yours but it might not necessarily cost a lot more money. Or you may do what I did and make a bid mistake; fortunately I had bought secondhand so it wasn’t so bad. But the Luxman PD171 that I bought is just wonderful.

I did find though that I liked Koetsus and also bought a Dynavector DRT1S. Wow! Some say not to try an exotic cartridge on a more modest deck but it worked for me on the Lenco.

You seem to be on a bit of a mission recently and why not as we only live once. Your system can easily take either a better cartridge or a better deck. These days I prefer the idea of a better deck and arm as they are not consumables like a cartridge.

@Rockchild seems happy with the new Thorens deck, I would also suggest any of the new Luxmans, SME Model 10, Well Tempered, Notts Analogue Hyperspace, Custom Lenco or other Idler or a Technics SL1200G
Cheers Dom, and hope you're well. The 'mission' has been a bit unplanned and unfocused but all seems to be turning out well. Maybe the same strategy for any TT related move might be fun - always interesting to see what pops up !
 
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uzzy

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You need to see if there are wammers close to you. You need to get your ears around a few turntable/arm/cartridge combinations to see what your ears like.

Personal view is a change of TT may make a small change (but not a major one) but the cartridge variations dependent on arm will IMO make a bigger change.

However, I am at a loss as to my ears the Goldring G1042 is one of the great MM cartridges. So the question I have is, does music from other sources (CD and Streaming) give you the sound you are looking for? If these also fall short of what you are seeking then the problem could be your speakers and or your amp and speakers.

The final thought I have is your comments above totally confuse me, namely,
"I'm currently not unhappy, to the contrary in fact
- I don't really know what I want to achieve"

Personal view is you have achieved a great source and if you feel something is lacking, I would have a look elsewhere in the system and for definite get your bum around local wammers to have a listen to theirs and see if your "feelings" change or at least are better identified.
 
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DomT

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You need to see if there are wammers close to you. You need to get your ears around a few turntable/arm/cartridge combinations to see what your ears like.

Personal view is a change of TT may make a small change (but not a major one) but the cartridge variations dependent on arm will IMO make a bigger change.

However, I am at a loss as to my ears the Goldring G1042 is one of the great MM cartridges. So the question I have is, does music from other sources (CD and Streaming) give you the sound you are looking for? If these also fall short of what you are seeking then the problem could be your speakers and or your amp and speakers.

The final thought I have is your comments above totally confuse me, namely,
"I'm currently not unhappy, to the contrary in fact
- I don't really know what I want to achieve"

Personal view is you have achieved a great source and if you feel something is lacking, I would have a look elsewhere in the system and for definite get your bum around local wammers to have a listen to theirs and see if your "feelings" change or at least are better identified.
Having heard Ian’s system albeit CD only the amp and speakers are not the problem. It’s a really great system. But agree that Ian should go listen at some Wammers homes to their turntables.
 
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Rockchild

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It’s no good listening to someone else’s TT in their system because that’s like going to a dem room with unfamiliar acoustics and kit. If you really are thinking of upgrading, you need to hear it in your room and your system. £500 will make little difference as mentioned and also, your looking for an improvement not a ‘difference’

A quality turntable with a quality platter and bearing will improve your vinyl but at a price
 
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sktn77a

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A couple of thoughts:
1. NEVER buy a used cartridge unless you are absolutely sure about its provenance!
2. You'll have to spend a lot on a new turntable setup to get a significant improvement in your current system. Buying a new 500 cartridge won't achieve much.
 
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uzzy

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It’s no good listening to someone else’s TT in their system because that’s like going to a dem room with unfamiliar acoustics and kit. If you really are thinking of upgrading, you need to hear it in your room and your system. £500 will make little difference as mentioned and also, your looking for an improvement not a ‘difference’

A quality turntable with a quality platter and bearing will improve your vinyl but at a price
Well we all agree to disagree I guess. Listening to other people's systems gives us ideas and when we get home and play our own if it then leaves us disappointed it is time for a change and then comes the investigation as to what to change next.

As to Quality TT - he has one .. all the reviews say the same in that there is nowt wrong with the sound but may be lacking a bit of detail and precision compared to megapriced alternatives.

We will probably disagree on this one as well, in that in my opinion once you get to a good/great TT the bigger differences are noted with changes of arm and cartridge and depending on budget bigger gains can be made in that area.

I am trying to get at what he thinks is missing as he said
"I'm currently not unhappy, to the contrary in fact
- I don't really know what I want to achieve"

So in fairness the idea of getting out and listening to lots of other systems and kit may actually help him to decide if there is no need for change at all.
 
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Rockchild

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Well we all agree to disagree I guess. Listening to other people's systems gives us ideas and when we get home and play our own if it then leaves us disappointed it is time for a change and then comes the investigation as to what to change next.

As to Quality TT - he has one .. all the reviews say the same in that there is nowt wrong with the sound but may be lacking a bit of detail and precision compared to megapriced alternatives.

We will probably disagree on this one as well, in that in my opinion once you get to a good/great TT the bigger differences are noted with changes of arm and cartridge and depending on budget bigger gains can be made in that area.

I am trying to get at what he thinks is missing as he said
"I'm currently not unhappy, to the contrary in fact
- I don't really know what I want to achieve"

So in fairness the idea of getting out and listening to lots of other systems and kit may actually help him to decide if there is no need for change at all.
If you take your deck and phonostage and put it in their system, then you can compare but you will need to have the same cartridge on both decks. This is the only way you can directly compare away from home @uzzy.
You cannot possibly see what a different deck is doing with different speakers, phonostage, amplifier etc. you will have no idea which if not all items are making a definite improvement to sound quality.

What we all agree on is £500 not making an improvement in sound quality however, it’s good to play with phono cables from the deck to phonostage. I’ve tried three or four on my new deck and there is definitely an improvement to be had especially if the op is using the supplied project cables. I found them harsh.
 

BettisDad

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I have to agree with Uzzy, if you feel the urge to upgrade, a cartridge is a great place to start. Your Goldring is a well regarded cart and the basis of the Audio Note Iq range. The cheapest upgrade would be to buy the Iq 1, 2 or 3 stylus ( you'd need to make sure they fit). If you're anywhere near Manchester, you're welcome to come and have a listen to the differences between the Iq 1 and 3 as I own both and it's a 10 second swap out. They're running on a TT3 so you can also see if you enjoy a sorted suspended deck at the same time .

Also worth noting that the Stylus on the Iq3 is the same as the Io1 which is the start of Audio Notes mega money carts. This could be had within your budget.
 
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uzzy

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If you take your deck and phonostage and put it in their system, then you can compare but you will need to have the same cartridge on both decks. This is the only way you can directly compare away from home @uzzy.
You cannot possibly see what a different deck is doing with different speakers, phonostage, amplifier etc. you will have no idea which if not all items are making a definite improvement to sound quality.

What we all agree on is £500 not making an improvement in sound quality however, it’s good to play with phono cables from the deck to phonostage. I’ve tried three or four on my new deck and there is definitely an improvement to be had especially if the op is using the supplied project cables. I found them harsh.
You miss my point - the guy is happy (he says so) but he feels obviously he should be getting more. Now my point is getting to hear lots of different systems gives you an insight. It also gets you to find people who have similar tastes and those that do not.

As to that learning many years ago I went to hear Bob Eubanks system at home (at that time he was using Gale 401s). It sounded fantastic (and I had loved the Gales in the shop) so from that point on I knew what sound i wanted. I got home and was disappointed with my system in that i could tell now what I was lacking. I managed to save and get my 401s and boy I was happy.

The same happened again when he got Acoustat 4x (4 panel electostatic beasties with their own built in amp) which whilst not leaving me disappointed as such made me realise that the Gales had to go at some time in the future (and no way was her indoors going to let me have a pair of large panel speakers) .. it took me another 20 years to find a pair of speakers that just took my breath away and still do some 20 years after I got them.

I truly believe that if you hear enough systems (in fact you can never hear too many) you build up a knowledge and memory of sound that when you hear something without a direct AB comparison you are still capable of knowing if it is better or not than what you have (or maybe as good but just a different presentation). If you think something is fabulous and better than what you have on returning home and playing the same tracks you will soon realise whether you were right or wrong. I accept that this may not tell you exactly what part of your system needs changing but it gives a beginning to work from knowing what you want it to sound like.

So the guy is happy with what he has but he obviously has an inkling or suspicion he should be getting more with the investment in phono stages and so the doubt creeps in is it the deck or the arm or the cartridge or all three. From my experience selling the stuff all I can say is for me, once you get to a good or great deck then the difference is the arm and cartridge. My conclusion for that was AB blind testing decks with customers how many actually chose a cheaper deck with a dearer arm cartridge combination which for their budget provided greater satisfaction for their ears (and I usually agreed with them). Even better was how many could hardly tell the difference between a Linn/Systemdek/STD with same arm and cartridge snd could not reliably pick one specific make on all tracks played.

I could be wrong and if I am the author of the question will shoot me down in flames, but I think he is rightly happy with the sound he is getting but in his head with the investment in Phono Stages he was expecting more (but cannot specifically say what that more should be)
 

Lurch

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Yes listening to other deck/arm/cart combos is a good way to hone in on what your looking for from vinyl. However, the problem for the OP still remains, BUDGET!!! The OPs Tron Convergence (as I understand it) is MM ONLY, and the1042 sets a very high bar within mm carts, to beat it in any meaningful way via another MM/MI would cost more than £500. It would mean looking at the likes of AT VM760SLC, Nag MP500, 2M Black (all £600+). The next option is high output MC carts such as Hana EH/SH, 10x5, Eroica H, but to my mind these are a compromise and you'd be better off SQ wise spending the ££s on a regular low output MC.
This then brings us back to the PS & budget which at £1k would be more realistic for an upgrade in SQ.
The Pro-Ject Classic if I remember correctly originally came fitted with an Ortofon Quintet Red and the deck would I suspect be more than capable of supporting a <£1k mc cart.
Doubling the budget to £1k would allow for the purchase of a used mc headlamp (Rothwell, Denon, etc) and a Hana SL, Eroica Lx, Quintet Bronze, AT OC9xML/SH/SLC or similar.
@Ian I would say at this point in your tt journey, unless your really into your vinyl stick with what you have as the 1042 will take more than £500 to significantly better. Once you've listened to more tts and better defined what your looking for either go to the very top of the MM/MI tree, or get a headlamp and an MC in keeping with your decks abilities (<£1k carts).

WARNING!!! Anything beyond fettling your current deck to be the best it can be, is a deep and very expensive rabbit hole.
 
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