TT newbie seeking input advice.

[Tazman46]

Hi all, I'm soon going to acquire a modded Thorens TD160 with Denon DL110 cartridge. Having had a quick look on the web it seems that there isn't a problem putting the Denon through a MM stage. My big problem is too many choices and sweet nothing in the way of experience and knowledge! I have 3 pre's I could try, Exposure XIV which has MM & MC so which would I use? Quad 77, which I'm currently using, this has both and each has 3 sensitivity settings! A Tube Technology Prophet for which I have no manual / info and they don't seem to want to give me it either. It does have a phono input though the previous owner didn't use it as he had a separate stage anyway so no joy there. As the Quad sensitivity can go from 100 micro volts to 7.75mv, that suggests to me that there is huge scope for getting this wrong which ever amp I try and I'm worried about frying something expensive.

 

[bandit pilot]

Don't worry about frying anything.

Are you sure the Prophet has a stage? It was an optional extra, and not a cheap one. That would be my choice though.

Scratch that. Just read the sale thread where it came from.

He was using a separate SUT, not a separate stage.

 

[vacdac]

You shouldn't be in danger of frying owt I don't think......but too much gain or non optimal settings are likely to sound fairly odd IME. A mate of mine bought my old Project Tubebox S.E. phono stage to use with her newly aquired Rega P3 TT ready mounted with a Sumiko Blue Point Evo III H.O.M.C. cart. I got a panicked call the afternoon she hooked it up saying it wuz sounding 'echoey' & all wrong.

At the time I struggled to think wot could be the cause as I'd tested it before letting her have it & subsequently made sure I'd set the dip-switches right fer H.O.M.C. carts. I offered to go across the next day & check things out as Jen has been known ter do the odd wiring SNAFU, but swore blind she hadn't touched the dips....which wuz my first thought.

T.B.F. I never even considered the cause might be feeding the external stage into her integrated amps phono stage......Although that thought came to me in the early evening & on phoning her in the evening that wuz indeed wut she'd done. I did have a nice big Yammy integrated years ago, long before I ever explored LOMC carts. This amp had a switchable MM/MC stage & inadvertently having it set to the MC gain setting for my Goldring 1042 MM cart certainly resulted in it sounding rather odd/not pleasant as there wuz simply way too much gain.......But no damage occurred. :nup: :^

Scratch that. Just read the sale thread where it came from.He was using a separate SUT, not a separate stage.

Sorry Rick.....I seem to be missing summat here.........don't see that an SUT would be advised for a Denon DL110 as its a HOMC & using a standard MM input + SUT with a HOMC.....the gain structure would be all wrong/way to high.

I think some stages that have a good range of adjustments allow you to adjust the loading more specifically for HOMC carts & fer LOMC's carts too come ter that. However the MC gain/step up stage generally isn't used as this would overload the input as it'd be way too high. Many switchable stages don't offer this though & convention is that in this case you simply use the MM setting for a HOMC.

 

[Tazman46]

Don't worry about frying anything.Are you sure the Prophet has a stage? It was an optional extra, and not a cheap one. That would be my choice though.

Scratch that. Just read the sale thread where it came from.

He was using a separate SUT, not a separate stage.

Yes Rick sorry my mistake, told you I'm inexperienced in these things! So does a SUT allow you to use a TT through any input you want then? In that case what's a phono amp, ffs I'm really crap at this. I only assumed the Prophet had a phono stage as the inputs and label are there, another lesson learned. I will try contacting Tube Tech. (again) and see what they say.

 

[rabski]

For practical purposes (rather than any sonic benefits) the difference between moving magnet (MM) and moving coil (MC) cartridges is the level of their output. MCs are generally significantly lower than MMs, though there are some high output moving coils that are close to MM levels.

A phono stage primarily deals with equalisation as well as adding some gain. A phono stage or separate phono amp is essential. The frequency balance of cartridges is artificially altered during manufacture of an LP in order to obtain the best response from the medium. When replaying, this needs to be corrected in order for the replay to sound correct.

A step-up transformer adds gain and is generally a better way to do so when dealing with low or medium output MC cartridges. However, this is more 'serious' territory and certainly not valid for a DL110.

A phono stage is all you need at this point.

Re the amp. There is no guarantee it has a phono stage even though the sockets are there, but generally manufacturers don't (in the amps I've seen) bother to fit unnecessary parts. The labelling is likely to be there, but blanking plates instead of the sockets. On the basis that there are voltages inside and therefore caution is a given, is there any way you could take the bottom off and post a pic or two of the internals?

 

[Tazman46]

Ok should have read this first before replying to Rick, to summarise as I think I understand you guys; the SUT allows you to use a MC through a MM input, the HOMC should also go through the MM input, if I'm using the Quad I just need to adjust the sensitivity of the MM input so that it doesn't sound wrong, I don't need to worry about frying anything.

There are some fantastically helpful people on this forum, thank you.

 

[Tazman46]

For practical purposes (rather than any sonic benefits) the difference between moving magnet (MM) and moving coil (MC) cartridges is the level of their output. MCs are generally significantly lower than MMs, though there are some high output moving coils that are close to MM levels.A phono stage primarily deals with equalisation as well as adding some gain. A phono stage or separate phono amp is essential. The frequency balance of cartridges is artificially altered during manufacture of an LP in order to obtain the best response from the medium. When replaying, this needs to be corrected in order for the replay to sound correct.

A step-up transformer adds gain and is generally a better way to do so when dealing with low or medium output MC cartridges. However, this is more 'serious' territory and certainly not valid for a DL110.

A phono stage is all you need at this point.

Re the amp. There is no guarantee it has a phono stage even though the sockets are there, but generally manufacturers don't (in the amps I've seen) bother to fit unnecessary parts. The labelling is likely to be there, but blanking plates instead of the sockets. On the basis that there are voltages inside and therefore caution is a given, is there any way you could take the bottom off and post a pic or two of the internals?

And an incredible amount of knowledge :^ ! I will take the amp out and hopefully get something up today, thanks again. (Edit) Cover is held on with 6 M3 button head screws which have been done up by someone who knows as much about torque as I do phono inputs. Consequently one has already been rounded out before I've even started, this is going to need drilling out....ok pictures :

So the input is definitely wired but whether it's a phono input and if so which type I really don't know.

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[mighty ant]

A High Output Moving Coil will have an output great enough to be put straight into the MM input. If a 'normal' output moving coil cartridge (less output) is used it will need to use a Step Up Transformer to raise its output level to that of a moving magnet. If you use a 'normal' moving coil cartridge with less output, then you will need a step up transformer between it and the mm phonostage.

Hope this helps and doesn't confuse even more!

Anthony.

 

[rabski]

If those blue cables are from the sockets marked 'phono', then it has a phono stage.

Might be a touch low gain, but you could probably get away with connecting the DL straight into that.

Worst-case scenario is it will be too quiet.