Upgrade Conundrum, DAC, Streamer, OR??

Lurch

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That's what I love about digital. It's always so straightforward :ROFLMAO:

I have a much better solution. Buy a higher-spec Koetsu.
Hmm, that means stone body, so let's see. Tiger eye, Rhodonite, Jade, Onyx, Coral or...... Now for cantilever, do I go Boron or Diamond. Having gone this far do I keep my current PS or go mm stage + SUT. Decisions decisions.
Yeah vinyl is so much simpler 😂😂😂😂
 

Lurch

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The Audition PART ONE, 1pm Friday 28/10/22 , Studio AV Chobham.

SAV Base System:

Dcs Network Bridge £4k (discontinued 2021)
Copland CSA150 £5k
Avid Reference 4 (standmounts) £23k
Shinyata Hydra 6 £4.5k
Cables, Various inc TQ Black ICs & Supra SC

I took along my Pimped Black Ice DSD & Mutec MC-3+usb and connected it into the above via my Chord Shawline Coax, also Robin (@wizmax) came along as a 2nd pair of ears.
First up I listened to my BI & Mutec to get an aural baseline with the kit I knew, well I thought I did!!! Straight away (using Shawline from NWB tp Mutec) it was Jesus!! That’s not my DAC, more detail, space air, definition etc, we continued listening to this combo for 20 mins to dial ourselves in.
Next up was the main (initial) reason for the visit, pitting my BI + M against the Lab12 DAC1 Reference with a view to upgrading my DAC. This required a change of cables to a Van Damme/Neutrik AES/EBU cable from NWB to Mutec so the Shawline Coax could be used to feed the Lab12 to allow for an a/b comparison + some input level matching. First up was the BI+M, via the aes/ebu the sound had a touch more body but everything else remained the same, after a couple of tracks Mike (SAV) changed inputs, and TBH if it wasn't for the very very small break in the sound neither myself or Robin would have known that we were now listening to the Lab12. WTF, that’s a £3k valve DAC that gets rave reviews Vs an $1100 pimped BI and £1k clock, ⅔ of the price and yet to both our ears it matched the Lab12. Same, or as same as to make no worthwhile difference, levels of detail, air space, attack etc, just a very minor difference in presentation, both of which I liked. This swapping of inputs continued over the course of 6 or 7 tracks I know well (about an hour) but we still both came to the same conclusion, the Lab12 wasn’t worth taking home for an extended audition. Even Mike the sales guy commented on how good the pimped BI was and he wouldn’t pay £100 for the differences between the 2.
I then said, for sh1ts and giggles, what other DACs do you have here further up the food chain that we can pit my BI against, Robin did ask me why as they’d all be out of my price range, I said its a chance to benchmark what I have against what’s possible and see where in the food chain it is.
Well Mike came up with a couple of beauties:
Dcs Rossini £23k
MSB Discrete + 2x PSU (can accept 4 PSUs) £13,500

First up against the BI+M was the dcs Rossini. The dcs was nice, slightly larger and deeper soundstage, with better leading edges and decay, everything was a bit tighter with slightly improved definition and maybe a tad more cohesive. Yes there were discernible differences between the two, however, for a £21,000 difference in RRP I was expecting it to slap me round the face and fook me brains out with a HUGE difference in performance level. This was not the case, the BI stood its ground well giving most of what the dcs did and only falling short on that last 5%.
Next up was the MSB, Mike said, it would give a slightly different presentation, and it did, being slightly warmer and fuller than the dcs. Once again though it was not £11,500 better than the BI. The BI once again stood its ground well giving most of what the MSB gave and only falling short on that last 5%.

Even though I haven’t come away with a new (to me) DAC, the afternoon was not wasted as it has shown me that whilst it’s limited to 24/96 on Toslink/SPDIF (24/192 usb) I do infact own a very very good DAC. In part that’s down to the expertise of Robert Ayre (@Open door) and the superb job he’s done with the pimping, but at the end of the day you can’t build properly on dodgy foundations, the Black Ice is a great DAC in it’s own right, which has become a phenomenal one in Roberts’ hands.

I did however come home with a streamer to play with in the form of the dcs Network Bridge which I will be evaluating over the next few days. The NWB will be pitted against my Pimped Node2 & SBooster ECO/Ultra mk2. Dave (@bigfool1956) will be coming over this afternoon to assist with this as he’s a seasoned, or is that jaded reviewer?
Will I keep the Node2 or buy the NWB?? All will be revealed in PT2 of the audition.
 
Last edited:

Psilonaught

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Nice write up, thanks for sharing

I wonder if you experience greater improvement with a good quality streamer, that was my experience in moving from a Zen mini to an Aries G2. Major improvement across the board.
 
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Rockchild

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An unusual list of equipment used. I have to say tho, I found the Lab 12 completely different and maybe more so in a comparable priced system.
DACs are funny old things but I thought it would have had a bigger impact.
 
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maddog_007

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Ah …, the t/t and Rega phono that havnt been used for probably close on 5 years or more - CD is my choice if source so why would that be an issue Dennis.

Hows Waterfoot these days - I lived there 2010-2014
No issue with Rega! ,my 1st decent deck was a Planar Three from Stereo Stereo.

Waterfoot hasn't changed much at all, Eaglesham Fair was VERY busy this year,perfect weather and folks needing to get out made it a spectacular day out for everyone.

Was up at Linn HQ a couple of months ago,they've been very busy with lots of new products like Organik,Karousel and the new Select.
 

antonio66

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Nice write up, thanks for sharing

I wonder if you experience greater improvement with a good quality streamer, that was my experience in moving from a Zen mini to an Aries G2. Major improvement across the board.
The way I read John's post, the dCS NWB was used as the streamer.
 

Lurch

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Audition Part 2. At home with a dCS Network Bridge 21-23/10/2022

My Home System (Streaming)
Pimped Node2/SBooster Eco mk2/Ultra mk2
Mutec MC-3+usb
Pimped Black Ice Glass fx DSD wifi
MFA Baby Reference V1
Nord ONE UP SE NC500M
Martin Logan Summit.
Power Inspired 1500S regen.
Chord Shawline ICs & Epic XL SC
Assorted branded PCs

NOTE:
dCS Network Bridge wired into Mutec via AES/EBU (VD/Neutrik) + 2x VD, BNC clock cables (dCS as slave).

Having had an afternoon being blasted by some impressive kit during my visit to Studio AV, I thought the 1st thing I should do once I’d managed to shoehorn the dCS NWB into my rack, was re-acquaint myself with the Node2 sound signature. After around 20 minutes I decided it was time to have a listen to the NWB. Nope. Had to spend 10 mins level matching Node to dCS ready for the a/b, once done I settled down for a listen (all necessary dCS setup done at SAV so was just plug N play) I setup the same track on Qobuz, as I was currently playing on the Node then swapped to the NWB. Hmmm! Are we getting some deja vu going on here? Well we're only halfway through a track, let’s leave it playing for a bit before swapping back. I swapped back to the Node after about 30 mins and realised, yes there is a difference. I spent the rest of the evening going back and forth between the Node & NWB giving each 20 - 30 mins between swaps, finally going to bed at 11:35, so an initial a/b session of nearly 7 hours.
I was awake again at 5am so on went the system and the a/b-ing continued as a solo venture until Dave @bigfool1956 arrived at 1pm, he then lent his reviewers ears to the evaluation. Due to time constraints and his expertise we basically swapped between devices and repeated tracks over the course of about 2 hours, at the end of which (surprisingly for me) our views on the Pros & Cons of the NWB Vs Node were pretty much the same, though he preferred both units direct through the BI (No Mutec).
Had a couple of hours break whilst I ran some errands, and following a chat with Tony Sallis (Coherent) I spent the rest of the Saturday (another 7 hours) listening only to the NWB, as that way when I plugged the Node back in Monday or Tuesday, any differences (if any) would be more apparent.

Node2 Vs NWB. DIFFERENCES.
The NWB gives you a bit more of everything: Slightly larger, deeper soundstage, greater air and space. More inner detail and better definition across the frequency range. It's a nicely detailed sound.
The only area the NWB loses out to the Node is on richness/warmth, maybe that's a function of the less defined lower mids/upper bass, but that doesn’t matter as I happen to like it. BUT!!!! The dCS Mosaic App is the most Prehistoric piece of garbage I’ve ever had the misfortune to encounter. Aside from the fact it allows me to set a downsampling frequency so its output is able to work with legacy DACS, in my case 24/96 on Coax and Toslink spdif. It’s UI is fugly and clunky, it uses a 3rd party service (airable) for internet radio, and whilst I can access any of the mixes on RP which I use for 95% of casual listening, it does not support album art for (artist/album) nor does it support the 3 dot menu for direct access to the artist on Qobuz, Tidal. I know I could get Roon/HQPlayer et al for this but that's an additional expense.

CONCLUSION

It’s now 1:30pm Sunday, I’ve been listening to the NWB now for near as damn it 31 hours, not bad going since I only fired it up here around 6pm on Friday.
I think I’ve given it a fair crack of the whip, and I’ve enjoyed listening to it, but there was no ‘Fook me sideways with a bargepole, I can see where my investment is going’ moment.
I mean, come-off-it, this NWB should have been a no-brainer SQ wise. A £1,000 Pimped Node/Sbooster/Ultra combo Vs a £4,000 NWB. Where’s that decent level of additional SQ that £3,000 should bring to the table. Yes there were improvements in the sound Vs the Node but marry this to the seriously shite App that would have me wanting to use my phone or tablet as a projectile, and there’s no way I’m putting my hand in my pocket for the NWB to the tune of £1800 less what I could get back on the Node.

So that’s it, I spent the week getting excited about a serious upgrade to my digital streaming admittedly at a cost of between £1,400 & £3,200 but if the SQ uplift was there I’d have splashed the cash. It's not been a wasted exercise though as it’s been an education, maybe I need to lower my expectations, or possibly I’ve got a better streaming rig than I realised. This process has not finished yet as I have a couple more manufacturers devices to investigate over the next couple of weeks, these devices however whilst being in a similar price bracket (one via the used market) they have additional value added facilities that could sway me. The idea being that if I can't get as large an SQ uplift for my <£3.2k then the useful extras could be sufficient compensation.

The Manufacturers and devices Im looking at are:
Cocktail Audio X50 D X50 D
Innuos Zen mini mk3 < Zenith mk3
 

Psilonaught

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If you want to hear a top notch streamer I think you need to hear a G2. The Aqua LinQ is even better but more expensive.

A zenith is also a good shout although I've never heard one.

I've read a lot of forum chat suggesting the Bridge is ok but not stella.

Personally I wouldn't bother with that Cocktail!
 

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