What do you think of Audio Science Review?

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dave

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What do you think of Audio Science Review?

Today I extracted some useful information from ASR. I was troubled by the Truth preamp in the classified, and eventually after 8 pages of generally dross, som useful conversation developed when the "designer" started to post. There were at least 4 competent people with something sensible to say on the thread. I am only half way through so far.

truth preamp thread on ASR for the interested.
 

mac72

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I don't think the argument is entirely about the cost of the production line is, its how much the people get to work on that line for products that come out at that price level.

There is huge differences in wages and treatment in different factories, I can assure you and one thing is for sure, the likes of Topping won't be using ethical factories at the price points they operate in.

Still , not unusual for the West to forget things like that in pursuit of the things they want for bottom drawer prices.
PCB assembly is automated as I mentioned in my post there is very little manual assembly involved apart from the final stages , price range they’ve managed to achieve might be due to the volume but this is just a guess .
I agree with low wage argument but we as a consumers do forget about stuff like this and low labour stuff is everywhere from clothing to electronics , with forthcoming living cost crisis most of us would have no choice but to buy cheaper.
 

StingRay

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I mean more compressed on pop/rock, so less dynamic range, I think that has quite a bearing on sound quality, they are not better they are worse. I don't think lossless/lossy is relevant, can be cds or mp3. Yes some of it is done because of where the music is played. Nearly all music is compressed but many digital records are over compressed, there are not mastered for Hifi systems.
 

mac72

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What do you think of Audio Science Review?

Today I extracted some useful information from ASR. I was troubled by the Truth preamp in the classified, and eventually after 8 pages of generally dross, som useful conversation developed when the "designer" started to post. There were at least 4 competent people with something sensible to say on the thread. I am only half way through so far.

truth preamp thread on ASR for the interested.
I've tried to read that but as majority of threads on there SNR is quite poor and this is the main problem with ASR forum but as you've said quite few "interesting" posters on there - shame @SergeAuckland don't post on the WAM anymore , I always enjoyed his input .
 

Southeastern

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PCB assembly is automated as I mentioned in my post there is very little manual assembly involved apart from the final stages , price range they’ve managed to achieve might be due to the volume but this is just a guess .
I agree with low wage argument but we as a consumers do forget about stuff like this and low labour stuff is everywhere from clothing to electronics , with forthcoming living cost crisis most of us would have no choice but to buy cheaper.

Not exactly.

I've actually watched the PCB for one of my products being made , mostly by hand. Sure there are facilities that are fully automated, but they are the real high end ones, and not one that the likes to ASR approved cut price goods will be using. It's the likes of Apple that use them. I doubt the volumes required for a niche market will have a considerably cost impact, however swapping out to lower quality components now and again most definitely will, and ensuring low pay for those involved definitely will.

We have a choice not to buy. While clothing is an essential, regular clothing purchases isn't, as with electronics.

Interestingly, I remember this report coming out about China actually closing the market on rising wages. Shenzhen is where the majority of cheaper electrical components are made. This is just a snap-shot of it

https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Shenzhen-tamps-down-wages-with-eye-on-China-s-manufacturing-exodus
Having been to Shenzhen a few times, its bustling craziness is often shadowed by the real and visible if you look abuse of people as low paid workers. An SMSL Dac at the prices they charge are not being built by happy, comfortably paid people. So ASR can bang on all they want about how great it is to cheap stuff, but realistically, they are more of a promoter of a darker and more sinister cog in an industry they apparently dislike so much.


I've tried to read that but as majority of threads on there SNR is quite poor and this is the main problem with ASR forum but as you've said quite few "interesting" posters on there - shame @SergeAuckland don't post on the WAM anymore , I always enjoyed his input .

I remember hearing his system at a show once, well at least that's who people told me he was, he was wearing cravat. Apparently, it was built on 'perfect'. measurements, but it sounded utterly atrocious. It taught me a lot about the measurement heroes that day.
 
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Fatmarley

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It would be interesting to hear what the guys at ASR think of this build thread (LINK). Neurochrome amps are supposedly state-of-the-art, with ultra low distortion etc, and yet some people say they lack something. Page 7, post #125 for the first opinion on the finished amp.
 

rabski

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I've actually watched the PCB for one of my products being made , mostly by hand. Sure there are facilities that are fully automated, but they are the real high end ones, and not one that the likes to ASR approved cut price goods will be using. It's the likes of Apple that use them. I doubt the volumes required for a niche market will have a considerably cost impact, however swapping out to lower quality components now and again most definitely will, and ensuring low pay for those involved definitely will.


I remember hearing his system at a show once, well at least that's who people told me he was, he was wearing cravat. Apparently, it was built on 'perfect'. measurements, but it sounded utterly atrocious. It taught me a lot about the measurement heroes that day.
With regard to the first part, I agree completely. The further problem is that when companies in other countries subcontract things like PCB manufacture to the Far East, they lose some degree of control over quality in terms of consistency. A sizeable proportion of subcontractors have a habit of substituting components here or there over time, or even leaving them off completely. When different components are used, tests may show no difference, but reliability may be compromised at the very least. When a subcontractor substitutes a part here and there, it's a near certainty that it won't be for a higher quality one.

With regard to the second part, it's a matter of listener taste. What any meeting with Serge should have taught you is that you will rarely find anyone else in this hobby who is as gracious and helpful to others. Disagreeing with his taste is also no indication of his depth of knowledge and experience, both of which put many others to shame.
 

steve 57

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I remember hearing his system at a show once, well at least that's who people told me he was, he was wearing cravat. Apparently, it was built on 'perfect'. measurements, but it sounded utterly atrocious. It taught me a lot about the measurement heroes that day.
Me too.. if there was such a thing as virtually no distortion amplifying device's ( the better triode valves at top of the list) there would be true low distortion amplifiers.

Nelson pass has in my mind produced a well written explanation on feedback and distortion that I'm pretty sure is ridiculed by many over at ASR

https://www.passlabs.com/technical_article/audio-distortion-and-feedback/
 
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Southeastern

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With regard to the second part, it's a matter of listener taste. What any meeting with Serge should have taught you is that you will rarely find anyone else in this hobby who is as gracious and helpful to others. Disagreeing with his taste is also no indication of his depth of knowledge and experience, both of which put many others to shame.

Without personalising it further, the argument is that ASR will often denounce something as bad as it measures poorly. Measurements are supposedly objective, and often in their case absolute, however 'taste' is subjective, therefore the two cannot combine, as measurements surely become the best there is? (incorrect but in their view, correct). Which wasn't the case in this instance.

Knowledge and experience are one thing, but if often portrayed absolutism produces bad results, something is flawed somewhere.
 

mac72

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Not exactly.

I've actually watched the PCB for one of my products being made , mostly by hand. Sure there are facilities that are fully automated, but they are the real high end ones, and not one that the likes to ASR approved cut price goods will be using. It's the likes of Apple that use them. I doubt the volumes required for a niche market will have a considerably cost impact, however swapping out to lower quality components now and again most definitely will, and ensuring low pay for those involved definitely will.

We have a choice not to buy. While clothing is an essential, regular clothing purchases isn't, as with electronics.

Interestingly, I remember this report coming out about China actually closing the market on rising wages. Shenzhen is where the majority of cheaper electrical components are made. This is just a snap-shot of it

[URL]https://asia.nikkei.com/Econom...ages-with-eye-on-China-s-manufacturing-exodus[/URL]

Having been to Shenzhen a few times, its bustling craziness is often shadowed by the real and visible if you look abuse of people as low paid workers. An SMSL Dac at the prices they charge are not being built by happy, comfortably paid people. So ASR can bang on all they want about how great it is to cheap stuff, but realistically, they are more of a promoter of a darker and more sinister cog in an industry they apparently dislike s


I remember hearing his system at a show once, well at least that's who people told me he was, he was wearing cravat. Apparently, it was built on 'perfect'. measurements, but it sounded utterly atrocious. It taught me a lot about the measurement heroes that day.
What type of components were used on the pcb you’ve mentioned and how many ?
Company I worked for years ago was dealing with Chinese pcb maker/assembler and depending on the level of how complicated final assembly/soldering was , type and quantity of components and the quantities ordered there is a point where manual assembly isn’t cost effective not matter how cheap labour was.
I’m bit surprised you know Serge as he’s stopped posting in 2018 and you joined WAM in 2019 ,probably it was a different forum you remember him from .
 

Southeastern

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What type of components were used on the pcb you’ve mentioned and how many ?
Company I worked for years ago was dealing with Chinese pcb maker/assembler and depending on the level of how complicated final assembly/soldering was , type and quantity of components and the quantities ordered there is a point where manual assembly isn’t cost effective not matter how cheap labour was.
I’m bit surprised you know Serge as he’s stopped posting in 2018 and you joined WAM in 2019 ,probably it was a different forum you remember him from .

Wouldn't have a clue, not my forte, nor my interest. As long as what I buy works and I have mitigated a better quality of life for those involved, normally at my cost/profit margin, then I am as comfortable as I can be with it all.

I don't know Serge, however the forum has a vast history that spans back many years, the search engine is very useful, and it is open to reading without membership.
 

mac72

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Wouldn't have a clue, not my forte, nor my interest. As long as what I buy works and I have mitigated a better quality of life for those involved, normally at my cost/profit margin, then I am as comfortable as I can be with it all.

I don't know Serge, however the forum has a vast history that spans back many years, the search engine is very useful, and it is open to reading without membership.
I’d say we’re talking about pcb assemblies using different type of components hence disagreement.
 

steve 57

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Without personalising it further, the argument is that ASR will often denounce something as bad as it measures poorly. Measurements are supposedly objective, and often in their case absolute, however 'taste' is subjective, therefore the two cannot combine, as measurements surely become the best there is? (incorrect but in their view, correct). Which wasn't the case in this instance.

Knowledge and experience are one thing, but if often portrayed absolutism produces bad results, something is flawed somewhere.
I don't think your far off the mark there, my view is that there are things that are difficult to measure. A fraction of a volt mixed in with line levels after going through the average amp and loudspeakers 'melting pot'
The real issue is with electronics that actually do preserve most of the original music signal then the loudspeakers often dont reproduce that signal.

Most systems make there stamp on an actual music signal, we all know that, and it's obvious to hear for most of us, all systems modify the original signal to some extent.

The measurements in every day use don't measure that.
But you can hear it !
My experence is that in a group of listeners, nearly all will be able to identify a more realistic sound.

Its not really a preference, its hearing things that don't show up in the standard measurements.
But the reasons for those being able to recognise a more realistic sound are actually based on good engineering principles that are known, but unfortunately not agreed universally for what they are and the effect they have.
 
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Southeastern

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I don't think your far off the mark there, my view is that there are things that are difficult to measure. A fraction of a volt mixed in with line levels after going through the average amp and loudspeakers 'melting pot'
The real issue is with electronics that actually do preserve most of the original music signal then the loudspeakers often dont reproduce that signal.

Most systems make there stamp on an actual music signal, we all know that, and it's obvious to hear for most of us, all systems modify the original signal to some extent.

The measurements in every day use don't measure that.
But you can hear it !
My experence is that in a group of listeners nearly all will be able to identify a more realistic sound.

It not really preference, it hearing things that don't show up in the standard measurements.
But the reasons for those being able to recognise a more realistic sound are actually based on good engineering principles, that are known, but unfortunately not agreed universally for what they are and the effect they have.

I think that's the crux of the matter, we can hear things that aren't measured.

Dom and I have most mentioned it before, being people who have recorded their own music, that often many, probably most systems don't often playback how it sounded at the time it was played and where it was played and recorded. Measurement based systems seem to be worse at it in my experience. While the 'data' is there on the recording, it does not necessarily mean 'everything' was captured, so therefore the ideology that chasing the perfect reproduction of what is on the recording is somewhat futile and can often lead to a very unengaging, harsh and robotic sound.

For me, Hi-Fi has two purposes. One, to recreate what something sounded like , like being in the room at the time and the sound of the instrument through the artists ears, and/or 2, creating a sound that the listener wants to listen to, however distorted that may be from one.

Others will obviously feel this is not what HiFi means, but for me, I chase number 1, and then tweak it to number 2. I don't want to listen to REM's Out of Time in its purest form because it was recorded and mastered terribly, I want to listen to how it sounded in the room, which from experience, I expected it sounded very little like what the recording ended up sounded like. I can do this with with component choices that do not follow a measurement based status quo.
 
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garn63

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Am getting on a bit now, and if I am honest the most enjoyable part of "listening" to music is assembling a system then not being inclined to analyse as much. Lost in music..but not caught in a trap...theres no going back ?
* Just another perspective (without the sycophantic, playground bitching that is ASR) Meeeeoww ! :)
 
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tuga

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Me too.. if there was such a thing as virtually no distortion amplifying device's ( the better triode valves at top of the list) there would be true low distortion amplifiers.

Nelson pass has in my mind produced a well written explanation on feedback and distortion that I'm pretty sure is ridiculed by many over at ASR

https://www.passlabs.com/technical_article/audio-distortion-and-feedback/

Many at ASR support their view with the few audibility studies available. Such studies rely on strict methodology which, rightly, aims at eliminating expectation and visual bias but by doing so it, in my layman view, also reduces the probability of small but still relevant differences being audible. Oversimplification leads to wrong conclusions.

The fact that some types of distortion sound good (to many people) and other types bad (to most people) doesn't help; also the threshold of audibility of different distortions can be massively different too.
And listeners who have not been trained to identify distortions (most people) are not really fit to judge sound quality; they can only state their preference. This is something that is actively overlooked by many at ASR which seem to believe that we (should) all prefer equipment which produces good measurements.

Nelson Pass seem to sit in the other extreme though... (Negative loop feedback does create higher order distortion harmonics but in sensible designs these products will be >100dB below FS)
 

steve 57

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(Negative loop feedback does create higher order distortion harmonics but in sensible designs these products will be >100dB below FS)
And that's the issue, with todays standard tests yes , except at higher frequencies, which are often clearly audible
But then again loop feed back is affected by group delay, so the signals that are combined are not exactly in phase, this causes cancellation and a change to the original signal.

I would put it to you the way a music signal is changed by many systems is clearly audible, and is in the range of -15db.(worst example).

It's so clearly audible.
Simply not being able to hear the background properly.
But because with many systems you can't hear some of the background, it doesn't mean it's not in the recording.

For me it's not about trusting measurements
They are not to be trusted when it comes to a systems abilitiy and there so much evidence to support that.

I think it's obvious if a system sounds right to most people, but the ability to pick up less obvious anomalies is more of a skill.

I'm also confident it's not small amounts of 2nd harmonic that sounds good in some amplifiers. Its the lack of feed back that retains the orginal signal.

Lastly with feedback amplifiers you have a route for back emf from the loudspeaker to mix with the input signal going into the amplifier to mix together, further degrading the sound

And .. don't forget group delay is the cause of distortion in gain devices.
 
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rabski

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The fact that some types of distortion sound good (to many people) and other types bad (to most people) doesn't help; also the threshold of audibility of different distortions can be massively different too.
And listeners who have not been trained to identify distortions (most people) are not really fit to judge sound quality; they can only state their preference. This is something that is actively overlooked by many at ASR which seem to believe that we (should) all prefer equipment which produces good measurements.
Ric, you keep posting this first part about distortion sounding good to many people as though it's proven fact, but I've never seen anything to back it up. Certainly there is plenty of evidence that even-order harmonic distortion is more acceptable to people than odd-order distortion, but I am less than convinced that people prefer even-order distortion to no distortion. The further issue is what exactly do we term as 'distortion'? Correctly used, it should mean any deviation from the original signal, so not just harmonic distortion, but also phase, differences to the fundamental frequency, non-linearity, etc.

As for the second part, anyone's opinion is valid if they listen to music. People trained in critical listening may well be better able to identify specific things or be better at describing differences more clearly. To make a poor comparison, a car designer won't design a family hatchback based purely on assessments made by racing drivers, even though they may well be better at differentiating between small differences in handling.

The fact that not everyone prefers things that 'measure better' may well be simply because the 'better' refers to a limited range of measurements that are somehow assumed to cover the most important aspects. The insistence of some manufacturers and designers on using very high levels of negative feedback is often because it makes the quoted measurements better, but as Steve has pointed out, it introduces its own problems in terms of timing and phase that are generally ignored by 'normal' measurements.
 

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Of course any system that is non linear can introduce timing and phase issues and most audio circuits are non linear without feedback.

The underlying issue is that the necessary scientific studies into this area have not been done and are unlikely to be done so it's a game for any number of players to propose whatever "causes" they wish to.

Regards Andrew
 
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