What level of TT do I need to compete?

DomT

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I see, certainly new vinyl is a mixed bag. I'm not sure how good the new BlueNote 50s albums are, they should be better than the pop records but some prefer the old vinyl it seems. If you visit the states there should be much used Jazz available there. Yes, pressings as I said about this guy: numerous different pressings and some of the best ones are extremely expensive but then some of the cheaper ones can be very good also. If you have access to playing LPs at a dealer or a friends that would be a good way to compare. I would like to compare Analogue Productions vinyl v the HiRes version. Pity they have stopped their downloads but I don't think they were available in the UK anyway, I did try to order Somethin' Else - Cannonball Adderley once. The vinyl edition of that is way better than the cd, the High Res version is an improvement. Yes vinyl is a bit more involved than digital, although even cds there can be numerous different versions of each album.
Pity prices are so high in the UK for records.
Not something to rush into. Direct drive you just change the speed with a button, belts you need to change the belt over.
Semi-auto I thought was just lift off, full auto return back to the start.

Research online, then have a few demos at dealers. Not sure what brands are available to you.

Speed change on a belt drive can also be done using a 'button' (or knob) and you don't always need to take the platter off and so it's the same difference.
 

Nopiano

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Adding a lifter (it lifts but does not return the arm - saves wear and tear leaving a cart running in the end of side groove is all) --> https://www.analogplanet.com/content/say-hello-little-disco-fwend-technics-direct-drive-turntables
Gosh, that looks like it’s inspired by the Audio Technica Safety Raiser, I recall it was amusingly called. I still have one, unused, from about forty years ago. Last time I looked they were about £130 iirc.

I must dig it out and see if the hydraulics still work. If so, I’ll happily send it to you, Steve, @ChemMan with my compliments as long as you actually buy a turntable that needs one!

There are some nice Thorens with auto functions but I think they’re about three grand here. Meanwhile, I’ve just seen a more than glowing review* of their newest and rather lovely Thorens TD1500, which is manual, but includes an Ortofon 2M Bronze in the £1,999 asking price. Seriously drawn to that myself, I must say. A sort of TD150 for the 21st century.

https://www.thorens.com/en/thorens®-td-1500-en.html

*In the March 2022 edition of Hifi News.
 

DomT

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Come and have a listen to my A90...

IMO, the phono stage is the single most important component of a vinyl rig. And I think you have to spend many multiples of the cost of good digital replay in order to compete with it.
Hopefully will do so soon although without a comparing to another cartridge it will be difficult to know that is contributing to what in your system.

I have not heard an A90 but I have owned a 2M Red and Blue, heard in demo many many time a Cadenza Blue (and also had this at home on demo) and just finished a week long home demo of a turntable with a Quintet Blue. I am just not a fan but clearly others are. In direct comparison on the same tables I prefer Dynavector or Nagaoka but there are plenty of people who don’t like either and that’s ok.

I agree that a great phono stage is important but you also need a good cartridge and turntable which is why we both have one.
 
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newlash09

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It doesn't have to be completely fuss free, yet it seems like Technics is a well respected brand. I've been reading about Thorens a lot. Everything under €1k has an integrated phono stage and is plug and play with MM. I've no idea is this is good or "bad." And are most quality TTs fully manual? The only "feature" I would not mind having is when the record is over it returns the arm, but don't know if this is even possible.

Vertical tracking angle and cartridge azimuth are things with which I have zero experience. I've no idea how easy or difficult these adjustments are. The Technics 1210GR with the phono stage, and €700 cart is now the same price as the Well Tempered Simplex package, yet the belt is apparently tough to deal with and someone else mentioned arm adjustment on a golf ball.

So In rome regards, I'm back to square one. Even with a €3k TT setup, not every LP will sound better than a stream from Tidal on the Node. I'm making this assumption after reading @Rockchild thread about Phil Collins.



I use Audiomarkt and it has search functions for both dealers and private. Lots of good deals on Speakers and Amps and lots of LP12s.
Been following this thread with a lot of interest. My 2 cents @ChemMan .

I did something similar last year and got my first ever vinyl rig of separates. But couldn't manage to mount the cart on the arm. Iam still waiting for the audionote TT setup service in india to send someone home. My friends with TT setups didn't want to risk breaking the connectors on the Cart, so presently the rig is silent.

If you don't have someone to help you set it up, best to go with something that is a all-in-one, with minimal faff. This is the bitter truth I learnt the hard way.

Secondly, you need a reliable source to procure vinyl. Most of the ones selling in my local forums as "excellent " and "very good" at pretty prices, turned out to be utter garbage when played in my friends systems.

With no physical record shops anywhere nearby, I've bought all my records from a importer in india, based on trusted friends recommendations. And the well regarded ones are really expensive. My starters collection of approx 150 LP's, turned out to be more expensive than the vinyl rig itself.

For similar outlay, I could be spinning a Dcs Bartok today :D

Iam now just hoping that the rig sounds worth the faff and the investment. It would have been a lot easier to get a rega or project or Technics. But "NO", being the ass iam, I always have a habit of diving head first in the children's pool :D
 

DomT

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Been following this thread with a lot of interest. My 2 cents @ChemMan .

I did something similar last year and got my first ever vinyl rig of separates. But couldn't manage to mount the cart on the arm. Iam still waiting for the audionote TT setup service in india to send someone home. My friends with TT setups didn't want to risk breaking the connectors on the Cart, so presently the rig is silent.

If you don't have someone to help you set it up, best to go with something that is a all-in-one, with minimal faff. This is the bitter truth I learnt the hard way.

Secondly, you need a reliable source to procure vinyl. Most of the ones selling in my local forums as "excellent " and "very good" at pretty prices, turned out to be utter garbage when played in my friends systems.

With no physical record shops anywhere nearby, I've bought all my records from a importer in india, based on trusted friends recommendations. And the well regarded ones are really expensive. My starters collection of approx 150 LP's, turned out to be more expensive than the vinyl rig itself.

For similar outlay, I could be spinning a Dcs Bartok today :D

Iam now just hoping that the rig sounds worth the faff and the investment. It would have been a lot easier to get a rega or project or Technics. But "NO", being the ass iam, I always have a habit of diving head first in the children's pool :D
Newlash raise ms two good points. Setup. A local dealer can set it up for you in your home. But if you move house then will you have to dismantle the deck and will you be able to set it up again. This depends on the turntable and some are more transportable than others. A Technics, Rega or Project should be fine. The great thing about an MM (and variants) cartridge is that they have a detachable stylus. When transporting you can remove the stylus if really worried about transportation although if the arm is exited very well then even an MC *should* be ok.

Sourcing LPs. As previously discussed you need to find some good sources and specialist record shops in Europe should be fine and the good ones will accept returns. eBay is a waste of time. I used to buy LPs in Madrid and bring them home to London and if there was a problem return and exchange the following week. @Newlash there is a guy on here who lives in South West London and buys LPs on his regular visits to Japan and sells them on here and via the internet. I have lost his details but did buy several LPs from him at the beginning of COVID; the quality was excellent and the price reasonable. Japanese pressing tend to be very good.
 
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ChemMan

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If you don't have someone to help you set it up, best to go with something that is a all-in-one, with minimal faff. This is the bitter truth I learnt the hard way.

Secondly, you need a reliable source to procure vinyl. Most of the ones selling in my local forums as "excellent " and "very good" at pretty prices, turned out to be utter garbage when played in my friends systems.

With no physical record shops anywhere nearby, I've bought all my records from a importer in india, based on trusted friends recommendations. And the well regarded ones are really expensive. My starters collection of approx 150 LP's, turned out to be more expensive than the vinyl rig itself.

For similar outlay, I could be spinning a Dcs Bartok today :D
This is where my head is at. If @Amber Audio says his 1200 at the office is just slightly better than his Node, it gives me pause. Because The Technics, the 50 albums I want, a decent phono stage, plus a decent cart could be upwards of 5-6K. And as @DomT mentioned there is the whole transport thing as we continue moving. Brussels, at six years, is our longest ever stop!

And maybe better is the wrong way to look at it. Maybe vinyl/analogue different is worth it. Perhaps different in and of itself is "better."

I think the best thing to do is go back to my dealer with some random records from a few folks I know. Take along my amp and Node and compare for myself. And it's worth €50 or so to buy a new LP and a couple used from the record stores here and test them out.
 

newlash09

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This is where my head is at. If @Amber Audio says his 1200 at the office is just slightly better than his Node, it gives me pause. Because The Technics, the 50 albums I want, a decent phono stage, plus a decent cart could be upwards of 5-6K. And as @DomT mentioned there is the whole transport thing as we continue moving. Brussels, at six years, is our longest ever stop!

And maybe better is the wrong way to look at it. Maybe vinyl/analogue different is worth it. Perhaps different in and of itself is "better."

I think the best thing to do is go back to my dealer with some random records from a few folks I know. Take along my amp and Node and compare for myself. And it's worth €50 or so to buy a new LP and a couple used from the record stores here and test them out.
The question I now ask myself every morning, when iam at my brightest is, 13000 GBP to listen to 150 vinyls vs Dcs bartok streaming a million songs.

It really is a no brainer :D

( the above said, vinyl was a itch I really had to scratch. And with my digital already sounding stellar, it was time to give vinyl my best shot, with a resonable chance of success)
 
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This is where my head is at. If @Amber Audio says his 1200 at the office is just slightly better than his Node, it gives me pause. Because The Technics, the 50 albums I want, a decent phono stage, plus a decent cart could be upwards of 5-6K. And as @DomT mentioned there is the whole transport thing as we continue moving. Brussels, at six years, is our longest ever stop!

And maybe better is the wrong way to look at it. Maybe vinyl/analogue different is worth it. Perhaps different in and of itself is "better."

I think the best thing to do is go back to my dealer with some random records from a few folks I know. Take along my amp and Node and compare for myself. And it's worth €50 or so to buy a new LP and a couple used from the record stores here and test them out.
I think it depends what records you are playing, as you found with KOB, that it can be much better and I’m sure many other old recordings are to, but some are very expensive. Amber Audio did not say what music he was playing. I would not go down the vinyl route if I was buying digital recordings. For Jazz I prefer Qobuz to Tidal, much more choice and I think some of the HiRes are certainly better than the cd versions. If your dealer Qobuz maybe worth trying.
 

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With your project budget, you should be able to build a vinyl front-end that matches your digital set-up. But ONLY JUST I’d say. – and this is taking into account that you will go for quality 2nd hand. You'll need to be very patient with your choices.

A decent Linn Sondek / Roksan Xerxes / Well-Tempered / VPI … there are many, and you’ll need to choose your favourite.

But I cannot stress enough the importance of setting up your turntable/arm/cartridge correctly.
* it needs to be perfectly level
* it needs to be isolated from even the tiniest vibrations
* it needs to sit on a wall-bracket, or very high-quality suspended table/rack (you can modify some solid, existing furniture by buying a thick slab of slate – and putting sorbothane blobs underneath). Better still, get some StillPoints.

The biggest obstacle to achieving a quality properly set up vinyl front-end, is that you'll need to consider many ancillary issues. Your digital front end will always be much more forgiving.

You'll need lots of patience. But it's worth it if you get there :)

This is a very good resource:
https://hifiplus.com/buyers_guides/4/
Cheers,
SP
 

DomT

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Any opinions on Nottingham Analogue turntables? Not heard one but would like to.
Yes I have heard them a few times at dealer and had one on home demo. The Ace Spacedeck sounds great. Very neutral and natural sounding. The Rega P9 sounded very coloured by comparison. I thought that this model had enough control to be credible but not too much like the Dais that made some music boring to listen to; I personally don’t like the sound of really controlled t/ts but others do.
 
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DomT

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This is where my head is at. If @Amber Audio says his 1200 at the office is just slightly better than his Node, it gives me pause. Because The Technics, the 50 albums I want, a decent phono stage, plus a decent cart could be upwards of 5-6K. And as @DomT mentioned there is the whole transport thing as we continue moving. Brussels, at six years, is our longest ever stop!

And maybe better is the wrong way to look at it. Maybe vinyl/analogue different is worth it. Perhaps different in and of itself is "better."

I think the best thing to do is go back to my dealer with some random records from a few folks I know. Take along my amp and Node and compare for myself. And it's worth €50 or so to buy a new LP and a couple used from the record stores here and test them out.
I think that Dynavector could have the VTL flavour that you like. I can’t remember if you said what cartridge you listened to last time. The cartridge could make or break your demo.
 

Amber Audio

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Amber Audio did not say what music he was playing. I would not go down the vinyl route if I was buying digital recordings. For Jazz I prefer Qobuz to Tidal, much more choice and I think some of the HiRes are certainly better than the cd versions. If your dealer Qobuz maybe worth trying.
All sorts, I started buyng LPs in the 70’s as a kid and never gave up. I have various pressings of Rickie Lee Jones and Suzanne Vega LPs as well as CD/SACD rips which is what I used when the new NODE was plumbed in the other week.

I have a fair collection of LPs - original releases, Mobile Fildelty, Speakers Corner, Music on Vinyl, Simply Vinyl, kind of thing. It can take over as a hobby reading up about the mastering, pressing, reissues - the Hoffman forum is useful.

My main rig has a 1200G and a Gyro, the office has the NODE and 1200GR in it. This is an old pic with 95ML and D90 a 33PTG and a NODE is there now.

64B17D48-1584-4829-B0BE-E9DC8C6877AC.jpeg
 

DomT

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So what cartridge recommendations for the Technics 1200G? Ortfon black seems a good fit
I spoke to a dealer this week about the Ortofon Quintet Blue that I wasn’t getting along with. He told me about Henley’s Ortofon roadshow event where they demoed a huge range of Ortofon cartridges on the same turntable at various dealers. The majority apparently thought that the black was too etched and that the Bronze was the better bet if Ortofon is your thing. Hopefully a dealer can demo for you.
 

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Vinyl can be a real pain: bad pressings, surface noise, set up, cost, maintenance etc.

I’ve three or four bought new Blue Note 80th and Tone Poet pressings that crackle and pop, tolerable through speakers but often a real pain through headphones. I’ve some dead silent Blue Note pressings from the same series. It’s a lottery. The pressing plants are running all out and quality imo is variable.

That said, it can be a joy to listen to and hold. For now at least, most vinyl as good as holds it’s value. I do find jazz particularly often sounds better on vinyl than CD or streaming, as ever that’s pressing dependent.

Trying to say one is better than the other of digital or analogue is imo impossible. I’ve hundreds of records and CD’s collected over the years, so wouldn’t be without either, but also love streaming.

Two cheapish Pro-ject decks (X1 and the S-arm Debut Audiophile) with basic phono stages, that does it for me. I upgraded the cartridge on each to an OM 20 and OM30, big improvement. One day when I have more cash I’ll likely look at a really decent deck, cartridge and phono stage.

Perhaps another way to approach is do you want to get into vinyl without comparison and from their set a budget.… who knows! Just know it is a problematic medium, all is sure but usually more so than digital.
 
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I spoke to a dealer this week about the Ortofon Quintet Blue that I wasn’t getting along with. He told me about Henley’s Ortofon roadshow event where they demoed a huge range of Ortofon cartridges on the same turntable at various dealers. The majority apparently thought that the black was too etched and that the Bronze was the better bet if Ortofon is your thing. Hopefully a dealer can demo for you.

Worth bearing in mind the OM series is still available. Buy an OM5E for the cartridge body and add an OM30 stylus for example. I’ve only heard the 2M Silver that came with the X1, but the OM20 and 30 better it by far imo.
 

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I spoke to a dealer this week about the Ortofon Quintet Blue that I wasn’t getting along with. He told me about Henley’s Ortofon roadshow event where they demoed a huge range of Ortofon cartridges on the same turntable at various dealers. The majority apparently thought that the black was too etched and that the Bronze was the better bet if Ortofon is your thing. Hopefully a dealer can demo for you.
I went with the Bronze on my 1200G, had intended to go with the old ART9 cos I’ve always been happy with AT and DV, less so with Ortofons but the Cadenza Bronze is absolutlely fab, prefered it to my XX2 on the Techy.
 
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I spoke to a dealer this week about the Ortofon Quintet Blue that I wasn’t getting along with. He told me about Henley’s Ortofon roadshow event where they demoed a huge range of Ortofon cartridges on the same turntable at various dealers. The majority apparently thought that the black was too etched and that the Bronze was the better bet if Ortofon is your thing. Hopefully a dealer can demo for you.
I went to one of those Ortofon tours in 2017, and wrote it all up on the WHF forum before I moved here. It’s been reinstated, though a couple of posts are out of sequence, if anyone‘s interested. And the Quintet Bronze was significantly better than the Blue!
https://forums.whathifi.com/threads/ortofon-tour.107899/
 
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