When bi-wiring speakers are the crossovers bypassed?

[ducattiist]

I've had my Pink Triangle Ventrical speakers for about 25 years now (bought second hand) outlasting many other much fancier/expensive speakers - usually due to the bigger speakers taking up too much precious room, not that the Pink's don't sound good.

I've always used them with single runs of speaker wire (nothing rubbish) and thought they were very musical and enjoyable, which is probably why I keep coming back to them.

I recently thought I'd move them on in an attempt to rationalise some of the hoard of hi-fi I've accumulated.

I rooted out a pair of MIT MH750 shotgun speaker cables that had been in need of new banana plugs and got them done professionally.

I then decided to try the newly terminated cables with the Pink Triangles - I'd never bi-wired them before.

The speakers suddenly have a new/better focus and clarity than I ever remember them having.

I'm wondering if the crossovers are completely bypassed when bi-wiring the speakers?

It's also made me think the crossovers, which must be in use when single wired, need to be recapped.

Or could it just be the massive cables and built in crossover networks controlling the speakers better...improving the clarity.

I've recently had some old equipment upgraded (Quad 303 and Revox B225 cd player) and have been amazed at the difference recapping makes.

It seems to have improved the clarity and grip on the music in both cases, I'm thinking it might be worth getting the crossovers checked over?

Anyone have any knowledge of how the crossovers work when bi-wiring?

Also any suggestions regards the benefits of recapping crossovers.

I'm now thinking I might keep the Pinks a bit longer, as they are so musical!!!

Thanks in advance.

 

[deadflagbrews]

The caps will be pretty old. I recapped a pair of B&O S80.2’s and there was a little improvement, possibly more piece of mind/placebo than much else though. Not sure about the crossover been taken out when biwiring, maybe the top and bottom terminals are connected directly to their respective driver and the crossover becomes redundant

 

[Nopiano]

Internal crossovers aren’t bypassed, otherwise you’d blow the tweeters in an instant. 
 

 

[Lurch]

Removing the link between speaker terminals merely separates the crossover into two distinct hf & LF component blocks as opposed to one block of components. The links are no different to two tracks/pieces of wire on a pcb connecting stuff together. However the links are often the cause of lower fidelity due to the low quality of material used in their construction. Whenever I've had bi-wireable speakers I've simply removed the links and made up short jumper cables from the same SC as used in the main run kits also cheaper tham two runs of SC). 

 

[rdale]

The caps will be pretty old. I recapped a pair of B&O S80.2’s and there was a little improvement, possibly more piece of mind/placebo than much else though. Not sure about the crossover been taken out when biwiring, maybe the top and bottom terminals are connected directly to their respective driver and the crossover becomes redundant

What make and quality of replacement caps did you use? I've been experimenting with upgrading the caps in a couple of my speakers recently and I've got some pretty large improvements with both. I used Jantzen Cross Caps in one pair and ClarityCap SA in the other, both using 0.1 mF Audyn True Copper as bypass caps.

 

[ducattiist]

Removing the link between speaker terminals merely separates the crossover into two distinct hf & LF component blocks as opposed to one block of components. The links are no different to two tracks/pieces of wire on a pcb connecting stuff together. However the links are often the cause of lower fidelity due to the low quality of material used in their construction. Whenever I've had bi-wireable speakers I've simply removed the links and made up short jumper cables from the same SC as used in the main run kits also cheaper tham two runs of SC). 

Ahh that makes sense, but the sound difference is such a jump...I'm amazed.

I thought Diapson (the ones that look like Krytens head) did some direct drive speakers some time ago which gave me the idea that the crossovers were bypassed...but your explanation does make more sense.

Always a wealth of knowledge on here.

I'll have to have a bit more of a mess about with the cables and links!

 

[deadflagbrews]

What make and quality of replacement caps did you use? I've been experimenting with upgrading the caps in a couple of my speakers recently and I've got some pretty large improvements with both. I used Jantzen Cross Caps in one pair and ClarityCap SA in the other, both using 0.1 mF Audyn True Copper as bypass caps.

I don’t really remember and there’s nothing on my eBay history, so not sure where I bought them. I don’t think I spent more than a tenner, so doubt they were owt special - just tried to match what I was replacing if I remember rightly. It was more an exercise in soldering than anything else

 

[awkwardbydesign]

Removing the link between speaker terminals merely separates the crossover into two distinct hf & LF component blocks as opposed to one block of components. The links are no different to two tracks/pieces of wire on a pcb connecting stuff together. However the links are often the cause of lower fidelity due to the low quality of material used in their construction. Whenever I've had bi-wireable speakers I've simply removed the links and made up short jumper cables from the same SC as used in the main run kits also cheaper tham two runs of SC). 

This ^^.

Plus I would return to single wiring and listening again.  Sometimes simply re-plugging can clean the contacts and improve the sound, rather than the change of wiring.  It will cost nothing (apart from the new links) to try it.  And try to be really honest with yourself; is there a real improvement in the sound?  I have convinced myself that something new is better, when it wasn't really.

 

[ducattiist]

I'll certainly give it a try.

There really was a massive improvement in clarity and drive using the MIT.

I know cables aren't meant to make any difference, but I don't subscribe to that theory, having listened to many many different cables.

I try to convince myself cables make no difference...but they do for me (Cardas Golden Ref gives more bass, Kondo's just get out of the way) and the MIT seem so clear, but I don't want to get into a mud fight about cables!

The MIT shotgun cables are designed as dedicated bi-wire cables, so cant do the comparison quite as easily as just running one length of cable.

I'll have a play though.

I think the links are fairly decent silver plated with teflon jacket...I'll give everything a clean with de-oxit.

I might have to dig out my Celestion SL700's to see if the bi-amp thing works on them too - they are ultra revealing speakers and have always had more clarity than the Pinks.

 

[MGTOW]

IIRC the cables in question were, in effect, a single pair of 'wires' which were split in a little box close to the speaker end of the cable. Can't really remember the 'whys and wherefores of this kind of design, so I am treating them as 'standard' biwire cables.

Separating the crossover in a passive speaker is simply that, the mix of inductors and capacitors are arranged on two boards, not one and instead of combining the signal paths together in the crossover in the normal way, they are separately wired back to the amplifier speaker terminals. IE each drive unit has it's own cable run all the way back to the amplifier, rather than a single run, like this...

Be aware that the crossovers X in the diagram are all different, the two in the bottom speaker are combined together to make the one in the top speaker, probably using the same component values, apart from the physical layout, they will be the same. The only difference being the point where the two parts are connected electrically, IE in the top speaker the connection is in the crossover, in the second it is back at the amplifier.

 

[uzzy]

I tried biwire and I tried biamping (well triamping in fact) and the marked difference - well nothing to be honest .. I am still firmly of the opinion on my comparisons there is no advantage to biwiring (just get decent normal speaker cable in the first place rather than doubling up)  as to biamp/triamp I think if the amp is up to the job in the first place adding more does nothing to improve anything ..

it did get me wondering if Ongaku owners are queuing up to biamp (at £50k an amp) 

However, perhaps the affect is different on some speakers and amps than others but as long as it makes people happy to do it then it is fine by me .. 

 

[meninblack]

it did get me wondering if Ongaku owners are queuing up to biamp (at £50k an amp) 

The last Audio Note room in Munich had two systems.  The cheaper one used a single stereo amp (forgot which one) and the all-out one used a pair of monoblocks (Kagura, €200k a pair.). Never seen them bi-amp with stereo amps.

 

[Rayymondo]

I didn't know Pink Triangle ever made speakers, I've seen record decks, amps, cd players and DACs but don't remember ever having seen or heard of their speakers!

 

[uzzy]

The last Audio Note room in Munich had two systems.  The cheaper one used a single stereo amp (forgot which one) and the all-out one used a pair of monoblocks (Kagura, €200k a pair.). Never seen them bi-amp with stereo amps.

Aye .. that about sums it up for me  

 

[ducattiist]

I think I've got the idea now.

The cables have two wires at the amp end which go into a small "box" close to the amp and emerge as one big fat cable (I assume its got 4 wires inside as its about twice as thick as the two wires that go into the amp.

The speaker cables seem to have a box of tricks just prior to the speaker plugs and then 4 wires emerge labelled for high and low output, so I assume they're also splitting the output just prior to going into the speakers own crossovers.

Probably total overkill

Pink Triangle only made about 250 pairs of the Ventricals...voiced similar to Quad ESL's but with a bit of bass (even though they only have a 3.5" or 4" bass driver with a Helm-Holtz bass loading. If you want to see what they look like they're on eBay at the moment, but think I might be pulling the advert as they sound so good bi-wired in my awkward room at the moment.

I will try them single wired again, but they are sounding pretty special at the moment running with Spectral pre/power.

I sold a pair of Horning Agathon Ultimates to a chap locally. After listening to the Horning's he bought them straight away, he then asked what I was replacing them with...I just said "The Pinks for now". When he came to collect the Agathons I played some stuff through the Pinks...he was pretty amazed at the bass and imaging (the Horning Agathons have 2 x 12" bass drivers). 

The better cables/bi-wires have made them sound even better. I know wire is wire, but there does seem to be better detail.

 

[MGTOW]

Ducattiist. this was 'a thing' back in the 80s and 90s with us cable manufacturers looking for 'interesting' selling points for their products.

The 'usual' setup would be a normal length of single wire cable running from the amplifier to a small box close to the speaker end of the cable, out of which two shortish 'tails' were connected to the bi-wire terminals on the speakers. The box contained some sort of circuit to optimise the two output 'tails' for bass and treble, the box was usually sealed, so I have no idea what was in it.

With your cables I would guess they are just two cores to the box, but maybe not...