Why are CD's so dull to listen too?

[soulman]

Can someone explain to me why I'm finding CD's dull compared to vinyl? They sound lifeless and almost monotone.

I have returned to using my vinyl collection after years of CD and streaming listening on a much smaller, position compromised system. Would it be a different outcome if front ends were of equal quality or are the differences I hearmore fundamental?

Comparing formats from different eras the results get closer or wider depending on when they were recorded, before the late 80's vinyl has a much greater dynamic range. Late 80's until mid 2000's the difference is there but to a smaller extent. Then from the mid 2000's onwards I'm hearing the gap widen again.

The above is a generalisation based on my limited collection, and there will probably be many people with different opinions, but has anyone else noticed this? Could my impression of the latest vinyl (only half a dozen new releases) be down to the resurgance in TT sales and vinyl demand?

I now have many more CD's than LP's and want improve the sound from my digital front end when funds allow, can people with both analogue and digital sources give me some suggestions for a cd player to match the Rega rp3 currently serving as my analogue source?

I don't want to start a war here, I just don't understand why CD's seem to be recorded in such a different way....

 

[avole]

My CDs and my records both sound pretty good. Maybe you need to look at your CD player?

 

[JANDL100]

CDs sound great to me (depending on the CD).

LPs sound great to me (depending on the LP)

Streamers don't sound very good to me. (Always.)

 

[The Strat]

CDs sound good to me. As you are enjoying the Rega TT suggest you try the Apollo CDP - It's a cracker.

 

[smegger68]

Clearly, if CD sounds much worse to you than vinyl on the same system then you have a problem with your CD front end. Possibly a good DAC is the way to go?

From personal experience, it took me years to find a DAC that I could live with. I had a Meridian 203 for ages, finally beaten by an Audio-GD NFB 12. It took a Theta to oust that. I have always found it much harder to optimise CD sound than analogue due to the much harder techniques needed to tweak it. You can fiddle with VTA and downforce to subtly change your vinyl sound.... try that with CD

 

[f1eng]

CDs sound fine to me when the recording is good, but I mainly listen to classical so the recent trend of mixing pop for mobile use only has not had much impact on me.

Here is one of the ways in which vinyl -may- be sounding more alive to you.

Mechanical and airborne vibration is re-picked up by the record player and becomes a slightly time delayed addition to the cartridge signal. This is like adding a bit of extra reverb at the mastering stage, and pretty well always sounds nice.

I learned about these whilst working for Garrard as a result of which I tried my turntable in another room, thinking less interference would be better and whilst it was almost certainly more "accurate" it did sound flat and lifeless.

There actually quite a few other additions inevitably made by a record player and they are all nice sounding apart from speed fluctuation IMHO.

 

[browellm]

Dynamic range compression (again).

 

[dudywoxer]

I enjoy both, they both have different points that they bring to enjoyment though. The biggest difference is unfortunately one we can do little about, that being the quality of the mastering. I am also sorry to have to say the sound difference between the sources can empty your pockets. You change CD player to match the deck, then think if I change the cart, and the phone stage, Ahh sod, need to change the CD player to match that, etc etc.

I would suggest you have a listen to the Rega Apollo-R as a stand alone CD player, or the Rega DAC with your CD as transport, (assuming it has a digital out), and have a look around for a s/hand Rega Saturn. They are going for silly money, and the number for sale may increase when the new DAC player hits the dealers.

The Saturn does not sound the same as my vinyl front end, but it is a very enjoyable, musically absorbing, and satisfying CD player.

 

[Stevebrock]

Yep, The dynamics have been compressed the hell out of most modern CDs, Loudness wars etc etc - thats why I love vinyl so much - however vinyl is no guarantee as some vinyl sounds terrible.

I have been picking up the odd MFSL vinyls recently - they sound absolutely superb imho - a record fair I go to one of the mag reviewers sells all his played once MFSL, Music on vinyl pressings - CHEAP!

I have got a few now - latest one was INXS - X remastered on 180g vinyl - really nice dynamics and a quiet pressing

- - - Updated - - -

Rega DAC sounds really nice, when I occasionally listen to digital I always enjoy the smoothness of it - however a good DAC will show a poor recording to be what it is

 

[f1eng]

Clearly, if CD sounds much worse to you than vinyl on the same system then you have a problem with your CD front end. Possibly a good DAC is the way to go? From personal experience, it took me years to find a DAC that I could live with. I had a Meridian 203 for ages, finally beaten by an Audio-GD NFB 12. It took a Theta to oust that. I have always found it much harder to optimise CD sound than analogue due to the much harder techniques needed to tweak it. You can fiddle with VTA and downforce to subtly change your vinyl sound.... try that with CD

IMHO there are certain characteristics of LP sound which can, if the listener has certain preferences and has optimised his system for LPs, lead CDs to sound poor.

LPs can not contain high levels of high frequency, though they are capable of extended frequency range. If a listener either prefers this sound, or has chosen the other parts of the system (particularly speakers) to compensate then only CD players with similarly tailored responses are going to sound good.

IMHO, it is probably easier, if one wishes to enjoy multiple sources, to optimise the sound for CD (which varies less) then tune the record player to taste, so they both sound good in the same system.

 

[soulman]

I have a budget cd player, by many standards my TT is budget as well but a lot newer, but didn't expect the vast difference between the two. On recordings that I have in both formats, very few sound similar in terms of dynamic range (gracelands is a notable exception) and this is what surprises me. Why do my CD's have less dynamic range? Can this all be down to my CD player?

Oh and thanks for all of the advice given, I don't want to and can't afford to get into a source war in my system! But also don't want to end up not listening to my much larger collection of CD's....

 

[rmsshipbroker]

Not sure what the answer is, but I do have a spare Rega Apollo sat here doing nothing if you wanted to have a listen.

I'm just down the road in Goole, so not that far away from you.

 

[soulman]

Never heard of loudness wars before, just started reading on Wiki (and will look at other stuff later) and it makes a lot of sense. Are there some companies that don't get involved in this and allow the music to have some dynamic range?

 

[Guest]

You should have had a listen to the Philips CD850 while you were here Des, I enjoy it.

 

[Radioham]

In theory the cd should have a greater dynamic range. Have you viewed the range either on a pc or vu meter of a recording device. Real life music does sound rather flat, which is why i try to go to a concert about once per month,to calibrate the ears. Dont forget a vinyl disc has been through all sorts of tweeking, there is the RIAA correction, dynamic range restricted, bass limiting etc.So some of this processing, could be pleasing to the ear. One of the big debates, is should hifi sound like real life, or like a performance ? Just like phtography, should the holiday brochure show the true colours, like grey skys and bleached yellow brown grass which is real life, or do we prefer to see deep blue skies and lush green grass.

Do you have two identical recordings, one on vinyl and one on cd. I have several i will say they sound different, but would not say one is better.

Alan

 

[browellm]

I have a budget cd player, by many standards my TT is budget as well but a lot newer, but didn't expect the vast difference between the two. On recordings that I have in both formats, very few sound similar in terms of dynamic range (gracelands is a notable exception) and this is what surprises me. Why do my CD's have less dynamic range? Can this all be down to my CD player?Oh and thanks for all of the advice given, I don't want to and can't afford to get into a source war in my system! But also don't want to end up not listening to my much larger collection of CD's....

No Des, it's not your CD player. If only it were that straightforward. Dynamic range limiting is usually done at the post-production stage, so there's nothing your CD player can do about it. The reason I got into vinyl is that recordings of new music have greater dynamic range than their CD counterpart - on a medium which is technically inferior! The irony.

Take a look at these three bands' output. All three have recording careers spanning the decades. (try it for any artist with a long career)

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=pet+shop+boys&sort=year&order=asc

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=depeche+mode&sort=year&order=asc

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=AC%2FDC&sort=year&order=asc

In each case there is a clear and demonstrable drop in dynamic range in non-classical/jazz recordings around the year 1992/1993 when mastering houses started to ramp up the loudness to compete on radio, and to pander to a changing demographic listening to music on the move (Walkman/in-car). The very sad thing about this is that it easy for the hardware manufacturers and radio stations to add "loudness" or dynamic range limiting and it doesn't need to be placed on the master, but it still is.

 

[themadlatvian]

CDs sound fine to me as long as they are mastered reasonably. Most classical disks are pretty good, with the exception being early examples from the 80s which can be very harsh or sterile. Some recent CDs are excellent. Many non-classical releases however are rubbish - many threads exist here which discuss the reasons for this.

LPs sound absolutely beautiful when they are good pressings and well recorded. Again, they can be indescribably awful.

The SQ of my streamed music is totally dependent on the quality of the original file. My SBT is capable of magnificent results with the right source material.

What is the best musical experience for me? - a top quality LP, by a very very short head.

:^

 

[soulman]

Hi Steve, the Apollo offer sounds great, if you were to sell it how much would you want? Could I pop over some time and give you the required amount of cash, assuming it's within my budget, and bring it home for a demo/comparison? Or are you keeping it for future plans?

 

[SteveS1]

If either format sounds poor beyond normal mastering variation, whether or not the digital is rendered by spinning a disc or playing from HD, the problem lies elsewhere. Both formats are capable of great results, the fact that not all discs are mastered and produced that way is another matter.