Grimm MU1 - has anyone got one, what else did you consider please?

[Fourlegs]

"Grimm MU1 - has anyone got one, what else did you consider please?"

as per the title? Anyone?

 

[PuritéAudio]

I evaluated one here.

Keith

 

[Fourlegs]

I evaluated one here.

Keith

Anything thoughts? I see you sell Grimm so presumably you like it?

 

[PuritéAudio]

Scrumptious simply scrumptious a toffee, crisp, crunchy with a heart like a lion, blacks blacker than a liquorice allsort, performers came to life  my wife who was in Pittsburgh at the time noticed the improvement.

It does have good ‘knob feel’.

Keith

 

[DomT]

Fourlegs I will have a go at translating for you. It sounded the same as the £100 Topping but has a few extra facilities. 

 

[tuga]

Fourlegs I will have a go at translating for you. It sounded the same as the £100 Topping but has a few extra facilities. 

A toilet with heated seat? :mrgreen:

 

[Fourlegs]

Fourlegs I will have a go at translating for you. It sounded the same as the £100 Topping but has a few extra facilities. 

Thanks, I was a bit confused. 

 

[Glissando]

 

[Fourlegs]

@Glissando thanks for the link. I will have a look at that. 

My interest in the MU1 was from hearing that it has been designed around Roon and that might mean that the sound quality from Roon through the MU1 is not compromised in the same way as it is through other streamers.

Until I can sort this I have set Roon aside and am just using iPeng/SqueezePad for the moment and the increase in sound quality is (for me) a revelation.

In my experience streamers, just like DACs, are not just about user interfaces or facilities but can have a marked effect on the sound quality of the system and hence why I am interested in hearing the Grimm MU1. Luckily I have now found a good Grimm dealer and am discussing the MU1 with him.

 

[ozzric]

I hope Keith evaluated it with his blindfold on.

Its a bit of a Heath Robinson affair inside, and seems very expensive for what is essentially an off the shelf NUC connected to a processing board. I cant see why they didn't use shorter USB cables rather than just wrapping the extra lengths around, and look at that 5 pence power connector to the NUC.

 I would just expect more for nearly £10k. Its like buying a Bently, lifting the bonnet and finding a Briggs & Stratton inside.

Apparently it sounds rather good though.

 

[Glissando]

There is a Video interview with Eelco Grimm about the Grimm Audio MU-1 with JAAP VEENSTRA. Its in Dutch but have provided English subs. Its best to watch at 3/4 speed otherwise these pass too quickly to read!

The MU-1. A ROON server and endpoint, the MU-1 has a twist. Three twists if we look at the competitors.

Last year we saw a prototype at the High End Munich. We heard The Grimm Audio MU-1 play in 2019. Now it’s finally available. According to Eelco Grimm it is the biggest project Grimm has worked on. More work than the LS1. The ‘culprit’: software. Then what’s so special? Isn’t the MU-1 more than just a ROON server/player? Let’s talk to Eelco Grimm. 

Streaming audio… it’s a market that has rapidly saturated. Although the top of the market is fairly stable, a few brands – mostly new brands – have made it to the established order. Grimm Audio is best known for its hyper-accurate clocks and active speakers: the LS1 series.

Streamer with a twist

New in the assortment is the MU-1. A ROON server and endpoint. However, the MU-1 has a twist. Three twists if we look at the competitors. So we see not only a digital output, but also a few inputs. It is possible to connect other sources. Handy, because that’s how those sources also enjoy the super accurate clock. An FLL to be precise. Eelco Grimm explains the advantage of an FLL in the interview.

Thick FPGA

Finally, there is an FPGA that upsamples all signals to 24 bit / 176.4 or 192 kHz. This requires – in the way Grimm works – an enormous amount of computing power. Eelco reports that the FPGA is a very powerfull model, but that it is still very heavily loaded despite the considerable computing power.

The advantage of this accurate upsampling is that the dac that will be combined with the MU-1, doesn’t need to upsample all the data itself. That way, errors at a further stage will be reduced. As a result, more space and resolution can be heard. More insight into the music… Eelco explains the process further in the video.

Streaming, clocking and upsampling

At the bottom of the line, the MU-1 is more of a central hub rather than a streamer. Or ROON endpoint. The MU-2 is going to add a self-developed, discrete dac, the MU-3 even a few more power amplifiers. But that’s future music. Let’s start with the MU-1…

Interview Eelco Grimm – Grimm MU-1 streamer

 

[Glissando]

Here is a review of the MU1 - He seems pretty keen on the sound, less so on some of the software.

https://alpha-audio.net/review/review-grimm-audio-mu1/

The sound of the Grimm MU1 is… very difficult to describe frankly. We listened extensively to the Metrum Acoustics Ambre next to the MU1. And at first there seems to be very little difference. But that’s a bit of a deception, because time and again we hear the same things coming back: neutrality, extra resolution and above all: more spacial information.

 Those who are serious about listening and not only pay attention to timbre, but also experience, air and ‘authenticity’, will soon notice that there is the unique feature of the Grimm Audio MU1 lurks.

And after a few days it is striking how easily the Grimm Audio MU1 plays. Everything comes through smoothly, naturally and in the right proportions. The whole thing is stress-free… If we then switch back and forth a bit, we notice that our ears prefer the MU1. We get less listning fatigue. And of course this is about small things, because honestly: the Ambre is a pearl within its price range. But the fact is: the Grimm Audio MU1 goes one step further. And it has to: it costs about eight times more.

Acoustics

Let’s get back to the experience. We’ve picked up a selection of test numbers. A mix of pop, classic, live and studio. It is noticeable that the Grimm MU1 shows how the track was recorded over and over again. It sounds live. It includes the space, acoustics, the audience and the energy that goes with it. That’s really impressive, because the energy in particular ensures that a piece makes impact. It’s hard to turn Steven Wilson live at the Royal Albert Hall off. That because we just hear the Royal Albert Hall. It’s a great experience. Pulling out these last bits and transferring the musical energy and feeling is an art… an art few manufacturers master.

Time for some piano work. We start with a piece of Jeroen van Veen. The series by Einaudi: Waves. The Ambre presents the whole thing neat and tidy. Exactly as we know it from our system. Neutral, airy, quick… Then time for the Grimm Audio MU1. Yeah. It’s adding a little extra on top of that. Especially the extra harmonics that belong to the touch of a piano note. It adds some extra beauty. Something the Sopras willingly show.

Also a bit of edginess in the higher octaves is lost. This makes the sound no longer ‘frayed’ (ringing), but very fluid. Though we have to say that frayed might be a bit of an exaggeration. At this level it’s all about nuances. But nuances that provide an extra experience. And music is about perception, isn’t it?

    If we think about it that way, the Grimm Audio MU1 may be able to touch the essence of the music better. The core… the soul… the emotion. Can we call that subtle? No. Definitely not.

All sources

We also briefly tested the inputs. We connect the Ambre via AES to the MU1 and a Sony 810 blu-ray player via spdif to the Grimm hub. We then play a few tracks via the MU1 and compare that with a direct link to the Pavane-dac. And damn… we hear through the MU1 the quality of… yeah, the MU1 back. The Sony also sounds considerably better via the MU1 than directly via the converter. That’s really impressive and shows that this statement by Grimm is not marketing. It’s just instantly audible that the FLL clock and upsampler just work.

 Conclusion

Some reviews are kicking themselves. This can be positive or negative. But fortunately it is often positive. The Grimm Audio MU1 can not just be caught. That's not so much because of the musical performance: they are excellent. Rather, it is a challenge to capture the way of playing and performing in words. That is really difficult in this case. Because... how do you explain that the Grimm Audio MU1 creates a feeling? That the difference with a 'normal' streamer is not a matter of sound ... but more the touching of the essence of the piece? Yeah... that's that. But that's what we're talking about with the MU1.

    We hope that Grimm will soon be able to dot the 'i' in the software. Then he'll be up to speed with the LS1be... ...or flawless.


Pros

• Sounds fantastically neutral
  
• ... and stressless
  
• Versatile
  

Cons

• Software here and there quirky
  
• Price
  

 

[Glissando]

@Glissando thanks for the link. I will have a look at that. 

My interest in the MU1 was from hearing that it has been designed around Roon and that might mean that the sound quality from Roon through the MU1 is not compromised in the same way as it is through other streamers.

Until I can sort this I have set Roon aside and am just using iPeng/SqueezePad for the moment and the increase in sound quality is (for me) a revelation.

In my experience streamers, just like DACs, are not just about user interfaces or facilities but can have a marked effect on the sound quality of the system and hence why I am interested in hearing the Grimm MU1. Luckily I have now found a good Grimm dealer and am discussing the MU1 with him.

It’s not a review of the MU1 specifically but covers the development of the company, background of the major players and the philosophy of what their products are trying to achieve. It’s a worthwhile watch as it covers some topics which they identify as key to good sound such as power supplies, noise floor, the time domain, clocking and jitter. They point out that most audio measurements to try to identify quality are about frequency and distortion and the vitally important time domain is almost ignored.

1hr 30 mins in they touch on the development of the MU1 and also discuss how some of the components from this will form part of later products under development such as a standalone DAC and amplification and potentially passive speakers.

Personally I hold a fairly jaundiced view of the streamer market as the market is currently flooded with product as it seems flavor of the month. The majority seem to be built from off the shelf products bundled together in a smart case at quite inflated prices. Few seem to offer much in terms of innovation or proprietary electronics or IP that might make it actually superior in terms of sound quality from the next. Some have implemented a few tweaks on the off the shelf products which may or may not have improved sound quality. The GRIMM seems to mix proprietary electronics and software with OEM products and appears to provide superior sound but at a very high cost of £10k. We are probably into the law of diminishing returns as usual as the review I posted compared a Metrum Ambre to the GRIMM which costs 8 times that of the Metrum.

 

[Fourlegs]

Personally I hold a fairly jaundiced view of the streamer market as the market is currently flooded with product as it seems flavor of the month. The majority seem to be built from off the shelf products bundled together in a smart case at quite inflated prices. Few seem to offer much in terms of innovation or proprietary electronics or IP that might make it actually superior in terms of sound quality from the next. Some have implemented a few tweaks on the off the shelf products which may or may not have improved sound quality. The GRIMM seems to mix proprietary electronics and software with OEM products and appears to provide superior sound but at a very high cost of £10k. We are probably into the law of diminishing returns as usual as the review I posted compared a Metrum Amber to the GRIMM which costs 8 times that of the Metrum.

Thanks for your links to the videos. They were interesting. The perhaps unusual proposal from the MU1 is that it can take real time input from modest CD players, TV audio etc and then output them with the benefit of the MU1 clock so that a cheap CD player can sound as good as a much more exotic one  (only via the spdif outputs from the MU1, not from the USB).

Although you might hold a fairly jaundiced view of the streamer market it is my experience that the streamer can significantly affect the sound quality of a system. Whilst the MU1 is not near the affordable end of the market nor is it in the exotic category of streamers such as the £25k to £27k Taiko Extreme price bracket.

I am sufficiently interested to see if I can get a home demo, perhaps at the same time as an Antipodes K50.

 

[Glissando]

Thanks for your links to the videos. They were interesting. The perhaps unusual proposal from the MU1 is that it can take real time input from modest CD players, TV audio etc and then output them with the benefit of the MU1 clock so that a cheap CD player can sound as good as a much more exotic one  (only via the spdif outputs from the MU1, not from the USB).

Although you might hold a fairly jaundiced view of the streamer market it is my experience that the streamer can significantly affect the sound quality of a system. Whilst the MU1 is not near the affordable end of the market nor is it in the exotic category of streamers such as the £25k to £27k Taiko Extreme price bracket.

I am sufficiently interested to see if I can get a home demo, perhaps at the same time as an Antipodes K50.

Interestingly in the link to the review of the MU1 I posted they did connet up the Metrum Ambre and a Sony player to the MU1 which would mean they were exploiting the DSP "sound card" in the GRIMM. This is what resulted according to the reviewer :-

"We connect the Ambre via AES to the MU1 and a Sony 810 blu-ray player via spdif to the Grimm hub. We then play a few tracks via the MU1 and compare that with a direct link to the Pavane-dac. And damn… we hear through the MU1 the quality of… yeah, the MU1 back. The Sony also sounds considerably better via the MU1 than directly via the converter. That’s really impressive and shows that this statement by Grimm is not marketing. It’s just instantly audible that the FLL clock and upsampler just work."

Yes there is some incredibly expensive stuff out there much of which I find it impossible to justify the asking prices. It seems to be verging on the area of foo and marketing hype. I think the discussion posted above really lays out the foundations (apart from the source recording) to achieve really high quality digital playback.

I've worked in the computing and electronics industry for many years and delivery of digital data reliably isnt that difficult we have been doing it for over half a century long before PC's were ever thought of. The computing stuff we are requiring here is commodity and can be bought very cheaply for a few pounds, even the source inputs like (usb,, spdif) and clocks used by the majority of streamer manufacturers are commoditised too. The difficult bit is lining up the data (bits,bytes) correctly, its processing and output to the highest quality. Thats where streamer designers should be adding value with their IP, but unfortunately most dont. GRIMM seem to have majored on the latter and not the former so perhaps they have something to offer that most dont.

I believe PURITE are GIMM dealers https://www.puriteaudio.co.uk/grimm

 

[PuritéAudio]

Not for this product.

Keith

 

[Fourlegs]

I've worked in the computing and electronics industry for many years and delivery of digital data reliably isnt that difficult we have been doing for over half a century long before PC's were ever thought of. The computing stuff we are requiring here is commodity and can be bought very cheaply for a few pounds, even the source inputs like (usb,, spdif) and clocks used by the majority of streamer manufacturers are commoditised too. The difficult bit is lining up the data (bits,bytes) correctly, its processing and output to the highest quality. Thats where streamer designers should be adding value with their IP, but unfortunately most dont. GRIMM seem to have majored on the latter and not the former so perhaps they have something to offer that most dont.

"delivery of digital data reliably isnt that difficult" but whilst getting it to work reliably is not the same as achieving good sound quality. My interest in the MU1 came about because of me being unhappy with the sound quality of Roon compared to ipeng and with the MU1 being designed around Roon I am interested to see if it has managed to remedy that issue.

Thanks for the note on a dealer suggestion but I contacted Grimm and they suggested a good dealer for me to contact.

 

[Glissando]

This is the recording made by Elco Grimm mentioned in the interview earlier in the thread



https://www.nativedsd.com/catalogue/albums/pcc10011saexceptional-masterpieces/

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0002NCIK0/?tag=sacdinfocom08-21

 

[Nopiano]

Thanks for the note on a dealer suggestion but I contacted Grimm and they suggested a good dealer for me to contact.

Did you see it was reviewed in the December 2020 edition of Hifi News, by Andrew Everard?  It gets their top accolade, Outstanding Product.