Best MM moving from Dynavector MC

[DomT]

Hello

To continue my quest for box and cable reduction I am considering getting rid of my SUT. My current arm is an Audio Note 2/2 (The new one with silver wire) really wonderful arm and medium mass. 

Main cartridge now is a Dynavector 20X2L. The most logical choice seems to be the 20X2H. I have a Dynavector to trade so financially it makes sense. Previously I had the 10, 17D3 and also a DRT1. I really like the Dynavector sound. It’s exciting, musical and textured.

The other reason is that I tried a Nagaoka MP11 Boron and surprisingly it had more ‘punch’ than my Dynavector 20X2. I am not saying that it was better overall though.  My SUT is a Silvercore 1:10 and maybe not a perfect match for Dynavector.

As you all know it’s highly unlikely that a dealer will have identical T/Ts with these two 20X2 cartridges and so once again would appreciate your help.

Seems like moving to MM I might win on punch but maybe lose....... what exactly? 

Many thanks

Dom.

 

[rabski]

Lose? It depends on the cartridges of course, but IME some good MMs can have that liveliness and 'immediacy', but that it becomes a little tiring and false sounding after a while.

I have no doubt that I haven't heard enough of each to make an ultimate comparison, but I've heard more than a few and I feel that good MCs have more of an even-handed approach and a light touch, but a more extended and 'open' sort of presentation.

 

[DomT]

Lose? It depends on the cartridges of course, but IME some good MMs can have that liveliness and 'immediacy', but that it becomes a little tiring and false sounding after a while.

I have no doubt that I haven't heard enough of each to make an ultimate comparison, but I've heard more than a few and I feel that good MCs have more of an even-handed approach and a light touch, but a more extended and 'open' sort of presentation.

Thanks for the response. I have very little experience with MMs. When you say tiring do you mean that they are too relentless like Naim of old?  That’s not what I would like at all. That Nagaoka I heard was not like that but Nagaokas have always been more laid back I think. 

 

[uzzy]

Thanks for the response. I have very little experience with MMs. When you say tiring do you mean that they are too relentless like Naim of old?  That’s not what I would like at all. That Nagaoka I heard was not like that but Nagaokas have always been more laid back I think. 

I agree with what Rab said - I would qualify it by saying that with MCs you get a depth and fullness to the music that is hard for many MMs to equal let alone better.  Having said that some people prefer that and would not change from MM to MC.   

I note from the spec of your amp that it includes a MC input stage and I note that you have an SUT - have you tried the MC direct into the moving coil stage (if there is one)?  What were the differences compared to using the SUT into the MM stage?  Forgive me for asking this but if a Nagaoka MP anything was giving your Dynavector MC a run for its money one has to wonder if there is something wrong with the DV or the arm cartridge set up.  It may be worth just checking the alignment and VTA and tracking weight (usually best set to the top end of the manufacturers recommended) just to make sure (sorry if you already have but just in case you haven't).

Check out if there are some Wammers close to you where you can go and listen to their set ups which may give you a bit more insight into what you are actually looking for.

 

[belloire]

the audio note iq3 is a very nice partner to the audio note arms. shipbroker Steve has one on his techy. sounds great.

i don't know the dynavector, but if you like it then maybe the 10x5 high output mc? not sure how it matches with the arm, but....

 

[Jules_S]

Not sure what your budget is, but what about the Cartridge Man MusicMaker III? Comes in arouud £750-ish I believe. It's not an MM per-se but has a high output, which would let you do away with your SUT. I've not heard one myself but they do seem to be well-thought of.

 

[DomT]

Thanks guys lots to respond to. Regarding Nagaoka vs Dynavector I just think that it’s a difference in loading. Everything is set up ok ( I have all of the instruments and know what I am doing) but good of you to prompt me on this. I am certainly not saying that the Nagaoka is better. But it has a little more punch and loses out on everything else. 

My Marantz PM11-S2 has a phono stage that reviewers say is equivalent to a £1000 standalone but it sounds rubbish compared to my SUT with my custom Audion.  It’s been years since I did the comparison but there was a huge difference. 

If MMs lack the body and tone of an MC then maybe I shall forget this idea. I do think it worthwhile trying to find a Dynavector dealer who really knows the difference between the 20X L and H. If I don’t lose much then it might be a good compromise. The problem is that this impossijlble to demo and the X20 will set me back c£600 trade in. 

The Audio Note IQ3 is a good idea but I am hesitant.  I have heard it many times at Deco Audio. Normally on a Spacedeck with Ringmat and N/A arm with Audion amps and Audio Note speakers. The sound was very live and forward sounding. (Too much so for me) Might have been the ringmat, arm or cartridge but it wasn’t the other gear. Unfortunately Deco’s IQ3 is worn out and a new one needs to be bought and worn in. 

Never heard a Music Maker but think that I have read that it’s a bit difficult to get working at its best. 

There are so many MC cartridges that I don’t like that if MM doesn’t have the richness then I need to be very careful indeed.

thanks 

 

[Smokestack]

I'm not familiar  with those Dynavectors  in the specific context of your deck & system  ...though I've heard  enough of them in other applications to know that they're very capable cartridges.

What I would say is that when you introduce the option of high output variants , you invariably further complicate the puzzle.

The problem with using high output coils in many systems is that any potential advantages are often lost in not having an optimised input for the cartridge.

Output is often not quite  high enough to drive a MM input very well , resulting in a polite sound ..often refined  but rather bland and  lacking in dynamics.

In short when we start comparing  cartridges of different types in a given system, we are also hearing the result of how well each cartridge gets on with the input stage you have it plumbed into.  This can often account for the puzzling results when we find differences in subjective quality to be much greater or smaller than anticipated.

 

[DomT]

I'm not familiar  with those Dynavectors  in the specific context of your deck & system  ...though I've heard  enough of them in other applications to know that they're very capable cartridges.

What I would say is that when you introduce the option of high output variants , you invariably further complicate the puzzle.

The problem with using high output coils in many systems is that any potential advantages are often lost in not having an optimised input for the cartridge.

Output is often not quite  high enough to drive a MM input very well , resulting in a polite sound ..often refined  but rather bland and  lacking in dynamics.

In short when we start comparing  cartridges of different types in a given system, we are also hearing the result of how well each cartridge gets on with the input stage you have it plumbed into.  This can often account for the puzzling results when we find differences in subjective quality to be much greater or smaller than anticipated.

I had thought that all MM cartridges had the same loading which is why the MM inputs are always the same on amps. Now am very confused. 

 

[dudywoxer]

Having had a DV20h, and L although with different stages, to my ears there is no comparison. The L leaves the H trailing in its wake in any way I can think off. If you must loose a box I would say you have to go mm, rather than high output coil. I think I would be trying to hear something from Audio Technica with a micro line stylus.

 

[Colinjg]

Could look at the high output Hana.   SH or EH.

 

[DomT]

Having had a DV20h, and L although with different stages, to my ears there is no comparison. The L leaves the H trailing in its wake in any way I can think off. If you must loose a box I would say you have to go mm, rather than high output coil. I think I would be trying to hear something from Audio Technica with a micro line stylus.

Really appreciate the comments. Thanks. It unfortunately leaves me in a tricky place as I don’t want to take a punt on something that I have not heard. And of course this is all system dependent. Hmmm 

 

[rabski]

I have to ask the obvious question. Why?

Lowering the box count is not always sensible if it means worse performance. Eespecially as (allowing for the fact that some careful positioning might be needed to avoid hum) SUTs can usually be tucked away somewhere.

If it's the sound itself, how have you got it loaded at the moment? Resistive loading can make a massive difference to MC cartridge performance and it's not the black art that some people (like to) make out. The formula with an SUT is quite simple, but you'll need to give us the SUT ratio and what the phono stage settings are. With loading, in general a moving magnet cartridge is sensitive to capacitance and a moving coil to resistance. High output MCs are a mixed bunch and to me seem to have the worst of both worlds. MMs are generally perfectly happy with the 'standard' 47k loading of virtually all MM phono stages, MCs are definitely not in most cases, and although they work fine, they can sound a whole football field better if the loading is correct. My XX2 states 'greater than 30 ohms' for loading. I use 100 ohms, which sounds about right, ahtough I don't actually 'use' 100 ohms as I load on the SUT secondary, which for various reasons is far and away the best method.

I actually used an IQ3 on a second deck at the same time I was using a Transfiguration on the Well Tempered. Obviously an unfair comparison when you add in the SUT, but frankly the IQ lasted about a week before I sold it. I long ago decided that with vinyl, the only thing I could really live with long term was a setup with a low-output MC and an SUT. The combination just works well electrically and every time I've had to temporarily go back to MM, it's never been for that long. 'Too forward' overall sums it up for my ears. I just like the delicacy and openness a good MC gives, though that doesn't mean a lack of dynamics at all.

The one exception that I would consider personally is one that rarely gets a mention, and that's the Decca, which is neither MM or MC and works fine into an MM stage. However, good luck trying to find one to listen to. Also, they are antyhing but 'budget', with the Gold at a good £900 plus. They never seem to ever come up used either, but I suppose that says something.

 

[Nopiano]

Dom, when I first read this I was going to write that you’ll lose ‘everything’.  A bit dramatic, perhaps?  But I struggle to see that you won’t find it a step, or several, backwards, and a costly one potentially too. Rabski has put it all very eloquently and comprehensively so I’ll leave it there.  

What’s one box, after all?

 

[DomT]

Thanks Rab. A very thoughtful post. My SUT is a bit fussy about positioning and ideally needs a separate shelf. In the new world it would be on a shelf of its own and that would be a waste. Am genuinely fed up of ‘stuff’ and having too much of it.  And the SUT and cable should generate c£300-400. But there are certain things that are important and that the musical performance.

My SUT is Silvercore 1:10 and has nothing to adjust. My phono pre is a heavily customised Audion and again has nothing to adjust. So the loading either works well or works less well depending on the cartridge. 

All your above comments lead to caution. And rightly so. My other option is to change to a one box phono stage that has MC. I used to have a Raven AC and Dynavector DRT XV1 so set about finding something better than what I already had. The Leema at £3.5k was nice but not worth it. Linn Uphorik sounded compressed and lifeless by comparison (both in my system) Couldn’t find anything else although I never got to hear a Whest. I don’t care about hifi effects just musical expression. Maybe this is something to consider but last time it didn’t work out. 

Is the phono stage route a safer path to tread? What might you recommend that is very detailed but not lean sounding, very dynamic, and has great tone? Max budget £1500-2000 if new? Am open to second hand.

thanks

D

 

[MotherSky]

Should you decide to pursue the idea of a change of cartridge, then I would strongly recommend looking at the Cartridge Man range - I have a Music Maker III and it is bloody excellent - they are moving iron rather than MM, and do require very accurate setting up, but once you find the sweet spot, would certainly meet all the requirements you set out in terms of sheer musical communication, and don't require an SUT - the caveat being I know nothing about your tonearm: my bastard-son-of-Hadcock is an excellent match, but it is a relatively low mass unipivot - I have an idea that his carts are less happy with Rega derivatives, but seem to remember that AN arms do not fall into this category - you could always give Mr Gregory a call: I'm sure he'd give you a very forthright assessment of the suitability of your arm - MH

 

[Lurch]

As far as all I one phono go there are as you know plenty of options. A small form factor one that gets good reviews is the Valab LCR-1 mk3, then there is the whest range you mentioned. If you are just staying with mc carts then something like the big bottle is a stonker, have had one here at one of my BOs and it ran my MFA classic baby SUT & Tron seven mm stage pretty damn close.. Another well regarded PS that comes up is the Aurorasound Vida, a stage which was an elephant in the room for me, and took my MFA/Tron combo to beat it, but is terrific with carts that happily work with 10 or 100 ohms. 

 

[DomT]

As far as all I one phono go there are as you know plenty of options. A small form factor one that gets good reviews is the Valab LCR-1 mk3, then there is the whest range you mentioned. If you are just staying with mc carts then something like the big bottle is a stonker, have had one here at one of my BOs and it ran my MFA classic baby SUT & Tron seven mm stage pretty damn close.. Another well regarded PS that comes up is the Aurorasound Vida, a stage which was an elephant in the room for me, and took my MFA/Tron combo to beat it, but is terrific with carts that happily work with 10 or 100 ohms. 

Thanks Lurch very interesting. I like the look of the Aurasound and getting a demo should hopefully be straight forward.

 

[DomT]

Should you decide to pursue the idea of a change of cartridge, then I would strongly recommend looking at the Cartridge Man range - I have a Music Maker III and it is bloody excellent - they are moving iron rather than MM, and do require very accurate setting up, but once you find the sweet spot, would certainly meet all the requirements you set out in terms of sheer musical communication, and don't require an SUT - the caveat being I know nothing about your tonearm: my bastard-son-of-Hadcock is an excellent match, but it is a relatively low mass unipivot - I have an idea that his carts are less happy with Rega derivatives, but seem to remember that AN arms do not fall into this category - you could always give Mr Gregory a call: I'm sure he'd give you a very forthright assessment of the suitability of your arm - MH

Thanks for this. My Audio Note arm has nothing to do with Rega. It’s the new Audio Note that interestly is a captured Unipivot design. Will investigate.