Denon 103(R)

[blackholesun]

Is a SUT necessary to get the best sound from this cartridge? I bought 103R couple of weeks ago and fitted it to a Sony PS-X65. The tonearm on the Sony, derivative of PUA-7, is supposed to be around 20g effective mass. Loading on my MC stage is set to 200 ohm. I found the cart to offer very nice top and soundstage but lacking in bass. Would that lack of bass be caused by the lack of a SUT or the fact that the tonearm's effective mass is actually lower than reported on the net? Or do I need to run it for more than 15 hours?

 

[SergeAuckland]

The stock DL103 with spherical stylus is a very good cartridge with lots of refinement. It needs to be mounted 20° higher then parallel to record surface. That gives for me the best result. Also mount a Denon 103 on a medium to heavy mass tonearm, and use a heavy headshell or a spacer to add some weight. You find information on that topic on the website of Sound Hifi. Try to put the tracking force slightly up from the recommended 2.5 to 2.7-2.8 grams. Use a passive SUT of 1:20. That might give you excellent results. 

How on earth do you get an arm to be 20° above parallel?  And why should that matter with a spherical stylus?

With all that mass, what's the arm/stylus compliance resonant frequency?

Sounds all wrong to me,  but if you like it that way..........

S

 

[SergeAuckland]

Is a SUT necessary to get the best sound from this cartridge? I bought 103R couple of weeks ago and fitted it to a Sony PS-X65. The tonearm on the Sony, derivative of PUA-7, is supposed to be around 20g effective mass. Loading on my MC stage is set to 200 ohm. I found the cart to offer very nice top and soundstage but lacking in bass. Would that lack of bass be caused by the lack of a SUT or the fact that the tonearm's effective mass is actually lower than reported on the net? Or do I need to run it for more than 15 hours?

A SUT isn't necessary provided your phono stage can provide a sensitivity of around 300uV. As to bass, a heavy arm will cause the resonant frequency to be a lot lower than the ideal 10-11Hz, and so provide a bloated heavy bass, influenced by warps and subsonics on the LP.  Some people like that!  :doh:

S

 

[boussven]

How on earth do you get an arm to be 20° above parallel?  And why should that matter with a spherical stylus?

With all that mass, what's the arm/stylus compliance resonant frequency?

Sounds all wrong to me,  but if you like it that way..........

S

Yes my mistake, i mean 5° or "slightly higher then parallel". I did correct my post. Look, it's not "completely wrong" to mount your DL103 a bit higher then parallel, to add some weight and give it some more tracking force then 2.5. I'm not the only guy with this opinion. It just makes the DL103 an awesome cartridge for the money. Did you try it?

 

[JamieMcC]

Within reason, I think a 'modest' cartridge with an excellent stylus like the Jico SAS will beat a 'better' cartridge but with an ordinary stylus. The 103 has a spherical stylus, perfect for blunderbus arms and Neanderthal DJs, but not fit for anything more refined.
 

So, I would expect your P77 SAS to be rather better, as the P77 wasn't at all a bad cartridge even in standard form. 

I don't think that the 103 being an MC has much bearing, as the sound comes from the stylus, cantilever and generator, and only the latter is good on the 103.

S

As I do not have any experience with better/expensive high end cartridges that’s interesting to know, I really haven’t known what to expect performance wise as you move up the ladder with carts other than knowing I liked qualities of the P77 SAS combination getting a SAS for the P77 was one of the best bits of advice I have had even if I chocked a bit at the price at the time.  So it has been interesting for me to gauge the performance of the 103 which is my most expensive cart to date against the P77. I will perceiver with the 103 set up I have a couple of decks and when the 103 is on song its enjoyable and offers something different. I also have a new Bottlehead Eros phono kit on the way from the USA so looking forward to trying both carts out with the Eros in the system.

Cheers

J

 

[boussven]

Is a SUT necessary to get the best sound from this cartridge? I bought 103R couple of weeks ago and fitted it to a Sony PS-X65. The tonearm on the Sony, derivative of PUA-7, is supposed to be around 20g effective mass. Loading on my MC stage is set to 200 ohm. I found the cart to offer very nice top and soundstage but lacking in bass. Would that lack of bass be caused by the lack of a SUT or the fact that the tonearm's effective mass is actually lower than reported on the net? Or do I need to run it for more than 15 hours?

Yes you need a SUT to get the best out of your 103; the PS-X65 is a perfect arm for the 103. The ideal step-up ratio for the 103R is 1:24 but 1:20 will give excellent results. Keith Aschenbrenner of Auditorium 23 makes a special Denon 103 SUT (Stereophile class B) but you can find cheaper solutions. I prefer passive transformers on active head amplifiers. 

 

[boussven]

As I do not have any experience with better/expensive high end cartridges that’s interesting to know, I really haven’t known what to expect performance wise as you move up the ladder with carts other than knowing I liked qualities of the P77 SAS combination getting a SAS for the P77 was one of the best bits of advice I have had even if I chocked a bit at the price at the time.  So it has been interesting for me to gauge the performance of the 103 which is my most expensive cart to date against the P77. I will perceiver with the 103 set up I have a couple of decks and when the 103 is on song its enjoyable and offers something different. I also have a new Bottlehead Eros phono kit on the way from the USA so looking forward to trying both carts out with the Eros in the system.

Cheers

J

Set-up properly, and with good matching gear, the Denon DL103 will not disappoint. Not a coincidence it still exists and is in production since 1963. Another cartridge like your P77/ SAS stylus is something else but difficult to say that the 103 is "better" or the other way around. Is a BMW "better" then a Volvo? It's just something else. Enjoy your listening!

 

[SergeAuckland]

Yes my mistake, i mean 5° or "slightly higher then parallel". I did correct my post. Look, it's not "completely wrong" to mount your DL103 a bit higher then parallel, to add some weight and give it some more tracking force then 2.5. I'm not the only guy with this opinion. It just makes the DL103 an awesome cartridge for the money. Did you try it?

Not on my own LPs I wouldn't!

As to arm mass, it depends on what you want the arm/cartridge compliance to come out as. I prefer around 10-11Hz but if you like lower, and prefer more bass and subsonic noise, then by all means add the mass to get the resonant frequency lower.

S

 

[boussven]

Not on my own LPs I wouldn't!

As to arm mass, it depends on what you want the arm/cartridge compliance to come out as. I prefer around 10-11Hz but if you like lower, and prefer more bass and subsonic noise, then by all means add the mass to get the resonant frequency lower.

S

The compliance of my SME 3009 Series II/ Denon DL103 is excellent, no problems with subsonic noise or "more bass". 

About VTA: do you really think you damage your records by setting your VTA slightly higher? That's what they call "the VTA myth". The Rega company has interesting thoughts on that!

 

[SergeAuckland]

With a 300uV output, a 24:1 ratio will give you too much output for most following MM phono stages, as that will impinge on overload margin of the stage which is not much more than 20dB on many stages. With a hot cut LP, that could well put the phono stage into overload, although the chances of a 103 tracking a 20dB hot LP is minimal, so perhaps it doesn't matter.

Why people persist in trying to make this antiquated and underperforming cartridge work is beyond me.  But then even Ortofon make the superb SPU available with a spherical nail for those who want it.   :doh:

S

The compliance of my SME 3009 Series II/ Denon DL103 is excellent, no problems with subsonic noise or "more bass". 

About VTA: do you really think you damage your records by setting your VTA slightly higher? That's what they call "the VTA myth". The Rega company has interesting thoughts on that!

No, setting the VTA higher won't damage LPs, but a cartridge with a spherical stylus tracking at 2.5gms and with that poor a tracking ability may well damage LPs, so wouldn't play any of mine.

S

 

[boussven]

With a 300uV output, a 24:1 ratio will give you too much output for most following MM phono stages, as that will impinge on overload margin of the stage which is not much more than 20dB on many stages. With a hot cut LP, that could well put the phono stage into overload, although the chances of a 103 tracking a 20dB hot LP is minimal, so perhaps it doesn't matter.

Why people persist in trying to make this antiquated and underperforming cartridge work is beyond me.  But then even Ortofon make the superb SPU available with a spherical nail for those who want it.   :doh:

S

No, setting the VTA higher won't damage LPs, but a cartridge with a spherical stylus tracking at 2.5gms and with that poor a tracking ability may well damage LPs, so wouldn't play any of mine.

S

It looks I will not be able to convince you on the qualities of the spherical DL103, no problem, but don't make a fool of people who like those excellent value cartrdiges, they are not crazy 

A Denon 103R (like blackholesun has) has an output of 0.25mV which is a bit lower than the DL103 (0.3mV) so that's why 1:24 ratio is the best for 103R.

 

[JamieMcC]

One of my SUTs is passive you know the type that uses those little  Beyerdynamic mike transformers it is 1.15 the other I a not sure of I guess it’s not really a SUT as such at all but a phono with configurable output and adjustable gain it’s a Clear Audio Nano and at the moment I feel my best results have been achieved with the CA Nano. So its interesting to read about the set ups other folk use.

Cheers

J