Linn Owners

How many hours does it take to rebuild up an LP12?

mbabst

Newbie
Wammer
Jan 11, 2019
135
59
33
Hi

I need to change the Plinth and Top Plate of my LP12 and in the same time upgrade from Cirkus to Karousel. My LP12 is from 1983 but already has Radikal and Kore fitted. My dealer told me it takes 8.5 hours to completely rebuild my LP12. At 170$ per hour this is pretty damn expensive and the costs of the Karousel are not yet included. What do you think? How long does it usually take to rebuild an LP12?

Best regards
 

mbabst

Newbie
Wammer
Jan 11, 2019
135
59
33
Thank you guys! I‘ve decided to do it myself and it is pretty straightforward following Peter‘s guide. Do you know where I can get a new a wiring strap and washer mudguards and locking nuts to fix the wiring strap?
 

Mr Kandid

Well-Known Wammer
Wammer
May 29, 2019
1,787
3,084
148
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Thank you guys! I‘ve decided to do it myself and it is pretty straightforward following Peter‘s guide. Do you know where I can get a new a wiring strap and washer mudguards and locking nuts to fix the wiring strap?
Probably Peter.(y)
Even airmail and tax isn’t that expensive.:oops:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wenge1

rabski

Everything in moderation
Staff member
Dec 2, 2006
32,864
1
26,111
173
Kettering
AKA
Richard
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Can we also take a moment please to reflect on that rate. $170 for the whole labour charge would be high IMO. $170 an hour is presumably a joke?

It's a bit of simple light engineering, not brain surgery. On exactly what planet do these people live?
 

ThomasOK

LP12 Whisperer, Lejonklou importer
Wammer
Oct 19, 2018
2,044
4,166
133
Westland, MI USA
AKA
Thomas O'Keefe
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
I'm going to get in the middle here. mbabst is not talking about just a Karousel upgrade that would indeed take about 1.5 hours tops. He is talking a complete tear down and rebuild to fit a new top plate (which doesn't come from the factory with the 5 bolts and nuts fitted), a new plinth (which doesn't come with the hinge plates or cross brace fitted) and a Karousel. So this is basically building an LP12 almost from the ground up. That being said you could supply me with every single part for an LP12 broken down, along with an arm and it's parts and a cartridge and it would likely max out at about 5 hours (maybe 4 if everything fits together nicely, maybe 6 worst case if things want to fight me and I have to replace one or more sets of springs to make the bounce acceptable to me). It is likely I could build two where the arm and cartridge were already setup in 8.5 hours. I do include the labor for the upgrade in the cost of the upgrade so I would deduct the labor to install the Karousel. I would also knock a bit off if the plinth was bought from me so maybe 2 to 2.5 hours reduction from actual time spent. I won't install a top plate without charging for labor as it is a relatively cheap part with a lot of labor involved. So the rest of the setup labor would still be there.

As to the price of the labor? Possibly the planet is New York? Although I've been told we are well underpriced we still charge $75 an hour at our store. Don't be surprised if that heads up to $90 some time in the not too distant future. Interestingly, I am doing a full setup and a Karousel upgrade for an out of state customer right now. I had to remove his top plate and bend it properly to stop a power switch corner rattle and I had to replace his springs and grommets as the set he had just didn't want to bounce right. The new set is better but I may still have to swap one of those for another one before I'm happy. But since the labor for the Karousel is included he will pay for 3 to 3.5 hours tops. That's how we roll.
 

sktn77a

Audio Dinosaur
Wammer
Nov 11, 2014
1,164
1,101
148
NC, USA
AKA
Keith
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I have to say that, having done this myself recently, installing a Karousel is pretty much a complete tear down and rebuild. As for attaching the 5 top plate bolts and and installing the top plate (and I'm guessing this guy isn't going to torque everything to T O'K specs), it shouldn't take that much longer - 30 min?

A rip-off is a rip-off and mbabst is probably doing the right thing following Peter's great instructions and doing this himself (and giving his dealer the finger in the process)!
 

dikki

Wammer
Wammer
Aug 5, 2019
267
286
83
Amsterdam
www.dikki.nl
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
My dealer has always been fair with me on the labor. I would expect him to charge for parts I didn't buy from him. I also would not expect him to charge an outrageously high hourly rate.
 

mbabst

Newbie
Wammer
Jan 11, 2019
135
59
33
Yesterday evening I drove to my dealer, bought the Karousel kit and just did everything by myself. It took my about 2.5 hours and I wasn't ruhing. It's now running for 24 hours and I will adjust the springs again after that. The offer from the dealer is a complete rip off. Another dealer offered for 1300$ (including Karousel Kit) but unfortunately he's 3.5 hours away.

Just another question: the old cross-brace was completely overtightened by the previous owner. I've just ordered a new one and I'm also going to replace lock nuts and washers. Are these

https://lp12bits.com/products/m5-nylon-insert-lock-nuts-new-ref-001199?variant=31502316044355https://lp12bits.com/products/5-off-m5-mudguard-washers-new-ref-001203?variant=31496117026883
the latest ones used by Linn?

I need 5 locking nuts right? On one side it is washer/nut/earthing/nut and on the motor side it is washer/nut/washer/nut/cable clip/nut right? At least the exploded diagram shows exactly this but it is not the newst LP12:

https://www.cymbiosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/LP12-Exploded-Diagrams.pdf
Is the second washer on the motor side even necessary)?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: llatpoh and JensA

ThomasOK

LP12 Whisperer, Lejonklou importer
Wammer
Oct 19, 2018
2,044
4,166
133
Westland, MI USA
AKA
Thomas O'Keefe
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
I have to say that, having done this myself recently, installing a Karousel is pretty much a complete tear down and rebuild. As for attaching the 5 top plate bolts and and installing the top plate (and I'm guessing this guy isn't going to torque everything to T O'K specs), it shouldn't take that much longer - 30 min?

A rip-off is a rip-off and mbabst is probably doing the right thing following Peter's great instructions and doing this himself (and giving his dealer the finger in the process)!
There is no necessity to remove the arm, cartridge or subchassis to do a Karousel install so I would call it far from a complete teardown. Also the top plate bolt install is a pain. If you try to thread the nuts on with a power driver it will overheat and either destroy the nut or even damage the threads on the bolt if you use turret nuts or nylock nuts. Since they are rather long, and I use the nylock nuts, it takes a lot of work winding them up to the top plate. It would be easier with the new flange nuts Linn are now using but I am not a fan. Once you have that done you have to fit it to the plinth, check for rattles, and you have at least a 50% chance you will have to remove it again and rebend it to get a good fit. Sometimes this takes a couple of attempts to get it right. Hence the variability in the time which also takes into account that sometimes the suspension just wants to fight you and some spring swaps are necessary.

I would tend to agree with your second paragraph, which states a bit more graphically what I pretty much said in my post.
 
Last edited:

ThomasOK

LP12 Whisperer, Lejonklou importer
Wammer
Oct 19, 2018
2,044
4,166
133
Westland, MI USA
AKA
Thomas O'Keefe
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
Yesterday evening I drove to my dealer, bought the Karousel kit and just did everything by myself. It took my about 2.5 hours and I wasn't ruhing. It's now running for 24 hours and I will adjust the springs again after that. The offer from the dealer is a complete rip off. Another dealer offered for 1300$ (including Karousel Kit) but unfortunately he's 3.5 hours away.

Just another question: the old cross-brace was completely overtightened by the previous owner. I've just ordered a new one and I'm also going to replace lock nuts and washers. Are these

[URL]https://lp12bits.com/products/m5-nylon-insert-lock-nuts-new-ref-001199?variant=31502316044355[/URL]
[URL]https://lp12bits.com/products/5-off-m5-mudguard-washers-new-ref-001203?variant=31496117026883[/URL]

the latest ones used by Linn?

I need 5 locking nuts right? On one side it is washer/nut/earthing/nut and on the motor side it is washer/nut/washer/nut/cable clip/nut right? At least the exploded diagram shows exactly this but it is not the newst LP12:

[URL]https://www.cymbiosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/LP12-Exploded-Diagrams.pdf[/URL]

Is the second washer on the motor side even necessary)?
If you do it the way Linn now does it you only need washer/nut/washer/P-Clip/small washer/nut on the motor side. This is how I do it as well. Linn do washer/nut/washer/ground tags/nut on the front post. I do that differently because the optimum torque for the ground tags is a bit higher than for the top plate post. Since I don't want it to interact I do washer/nut then a little space and an upside down nut/ground tags/nut. No additional washer is needed with the two nuts used that way. That would give you 3 washers and 5 nuts (plus the small washer that you use with the new style P-Clip ).
 

mbabst

Newbie
Wammer
Jan 11, 2019
135
59
33
Thank you very much Thomas!

Is there a list somewhere around with all recommended torque settings?

For the Karousel I‘ve used 3.5Nm and for the connection between top plate and wooden corner 40cNm as recommended. Everything else I did by feel. Any other torque settings that are critical?
 
Last edited:

sktn77a

Audio Dinosaur
Wammer
Nov 11, 2014
1,164
1,101
148
NC, USA
AKA
Keith
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I summarized Tom's list of torques last year when I was preparing to update my LP12. Hopefully this will save him digging everything up again! He may have experimented and update them some since then.

Note that the torques are listed as: Torque +/- "clicks" (the clicks on the Sturtevant torque wrench)

LP12 Torques
Karousel bearing housing to Majik/Kore sub chassis 3.4Nm even
Valhalla/Lingo 1, 2, 3 motor to top plate 1.2Nm
Motor and AC wires to Valhalla board 0.2 -5
Karousel bearing housing bottom cap 2.4Nm +2
Top Plate bolts with nylock nuts 0.8Nm -3
Top Plate bolts with star washer nuts 0.6 +1 (slightly better in this position)
Motor corner stud 0.4 +3 (Here the nylock nut is best.)
Arm height Ekos 2/SE 1.6 +1
Ekos arm collar to armboard/sub chassis bolts 0.8 -3
Grub screw that locks arm cable into arm pillar 0.2 -4 (if metal plug)
Hinge plates 0.6 -2 (yeah, this makes a difference too)
Ground wire to Majik/Kore 0.6 -7 (Keel requires Torx 10 Security bit, I think standard T10 is OK for the others)
Ground wire to front stud 0.8
Ground wire to Trampolin 2 stud 0.8 -3
Lyra Argo to an Ekos is 0.4Nm even.
Lingo 4 torques:
Motor mount bolts 0.6Nm -4 notches
Sensor bracket to top plate 0.8 +2
Board to sensor bracket 0.4 -3
Wires to terminal on sensor bracket 0.2 -9 (and hold the terminal strip in place while tightening)
Wires to terminal on board inside LP12 0.2 -9 (and hold the terminal strip in place while tightening)
Internal board to brace 0.4 +2
Cover on internal board to brace 0.4 -2
Boards inside Lingo 4 PS 0.4 -4
XLR on PS 0.4 -1
Cover on Lingo 4 PS 0.6 -4
 
  • Like
Reactions: mbabst

ThomasOK

LP12 Whisperer, Lejonklou importer
Wammer
Oct 19, 2018
2,044
4,166
133
Westland, MI USA
AKA
Thomas O'Keefe
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
Almost all of what sktn77a listed above is correct. However the numbers are not + or - "clicks" but + or - notches. The Sturtevant Richmont CAL36/4 torque driver most of us use has markings every .2Nm between .2Nm and 4.0Nm and has a series of nine notches in the base. The tab on the flip up handle fits into a notch when folded down. So the procedure is to adjust to the nearest marking, find which side the tab fits into the notch and count the appropriate number of notches up or down from there. The driver does click when the fastener is tightened to the right torque.

There is a torque for the motor wires to the plug that connects to a Lingo 4 board (also for the Majik motor) which is .2Nm -5.

There is a new torque for the Karousel bearing housing bottom cap and that is 7.0Nm! I downloaded a Linn document recommending possible torque drivers for attaching the Karousel to the subchassis. It mentioned that if you had to reattach the bottom cap that Linn used 6.5Nm at the factory and it shouldn't be tightened higher than 7.5Nm. Initially it didn't make sense as I never saw a bottom cap come from the factory that took even 3Nm to loosen so I ignored it. But in the back of my mind it was always working away at me that there might be a better torque. So I did some searching and found the type of torque driver that I prefer, one that breaks at the set torque so you can't apply too much and is more consistent, and that covered a higher range. I found one on Amazon,com that had very good ratings, went from 2Nm to 8Nm and could be relatively finely adjusted (not as fine as the SR Torque driver, which is still the best in the range it covers) so I bought it. I tested against my SR Torque driver at 3Nm and 4Nm and found it to be quite accurate (less than a notch difference). So I set to work on the bottom cap of an LP12 I had just installed a Karousel into and was still in the jig. 6.5Nm wasn't great, 7.0Nm was quite good, 7.5Nm was not too good either. I compared 7.0 to 2.4+2 and 7.0 was better! Then I tried 7.1, 6.9 (it has markings and stops at each .1Nm) and tried in between stops. I believe I got as close as about 7.02 or 7.03. Dead on 7.0 was the best and easily more musical than the previous 2.4+2 setting which, although still good, sounded as though it put a thin veil over the music and also detracted slightly from timing. Later I noticed that the calibration chart included with my driver said that the actual torque was 7.5 as the reading of 8.0, which is within spec (it was much closer at 2.0 and 5.0) so I tried up to 8.0 knowing it wouldn't be above Linn's maximum recommended torque. 7.0 is still the best. A couple of other people ordered the same torque driver and tried the new 7.0Nm torque. One of them put clips of the old and new torques on the Lejonklou forum not saying what they were. It was unanimous that the 7.0 setting was musically superior to the 2.4+2 setting and many were quite impressed by the musical difference. A few others have tried it and all have been pleased as have my customers who I have redone it for. Note that the optimum torque could change if the driver you get is calibrated differently at the 8.0 setting (I know of 3 so far that did show 7.5, including one I sent to Fredrik).

Here is the link on Amazon in the US for that driver:

Amazon product

If there are any torques you need for your setup that are not covered send me a PM with what you need and I'll get them to you. Also while some torques make a bigger difference musically than others I consider them all important. It is when you get everything really right with the LP12 setup that it truly sings and makes you want to dance to the music. Also when it comes to torques close is not enough. As the saying goes "Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and first dates!" It definitely doesn't count in torque settings on Hi-Fi equipment. There are even a very few places where the optimum torque is a half notch - which is less than one hundredth of a Nm!
 

mskaye

mskaye
Wammer
Jul 8, 2019
576
610
113
US
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
  2. No
Almost all of what sktn77a listed above is correct. However the numbers are not + or - "clicks" but + or - notches. The Sturtevant Richmont CAL36/4 torque driver most of us use has markings every .2Nm between .2Nm and 4.0Nm and has a series of nine notches in the base. The tab on the flip up handle fits into a notch when folded down. So the procedure is to adjust to the nearest marking, find which side the tab fits into the notch and count the appropriate number of notches up or down from there. The driver does click when the fastener is tightened to the right torque.

There is a torque for the motor wires to the plug that connects to a Lingo 4 board (also for the Majik motor) which is .2Nm -5.

There is a new torque for the Karousel bearing housing bottom cap and that is 7.0Nm! I downloaded a Linn document recommending possible torque drivers for attaching the Karousel to the subchassis. It mentioned that if you had to reattach the bottom cap that Linn used 6.5Nm at the factory and it shouldn't be tightened higher than 7.5Nm. Initially it didn't make sense as I never saw a bottom cap come from the factory that took even 3Nm to loosen so I ignored it. But in the back of my mind it was always working away at me that there might be a better torque. So I did some searching and found the type of torque driver that I prefer, one that breaks at the set torque so you can't apply too much and is more consistent, and that covered a higher range. I found one on Amazon,com that had very good ratings, went from 2Nm to 8Nm and could be relatively finely adjusted (not as fine as the SR Torque driver, which is still the best in the range it covers) so I bought it. I tested against my SR Torque driver at 3Nm and 4Nm and found it to be quite accurate (less than a notch difference). So I set to work on the bottom cap of an LP12 I had just installed a Karousel into and was still in the jig. 6.5Nm wasn't great, 7.0Nm was quite good, 7.5Nm was not too good either. I compared 7.0 to 2.4+2 and 7.0 was better! Then I tried 7.1, 6.9 (it has markings and stops at each .1Nm) and tried in between stops. I believe I got as close as about 7.02 or 7.03. Dead on 7.0 was the best and easily more musical than the previous 2.4+2 setting which, although still good, sounded as though it put a thin veil over the music and also detracted slightly from timing. Later I noticed that the calibration chart included with my driver said that the actual torque was 7.5 as the reading of 8.0, which is within spec (it was much closer at 2.0 and 5.0) so I tried up to 8.0 knowing it wouldn't be above Linn's maximum recommended torque. 7.0 is still the best. A couple of other people ordered the same torque driver and tried the new 7.0Nm torque. One of them put clips of the old and new torques on the Lejonklou forum not saying what they were. It was unanimous that the 7.0 setting was musically superior to the 2.4+2 setting and many were quite impressed by the musical difference. A few others have tried it and all have been pleased as have my customers who I have redone it for. Note that the optimum torque could change if the driver you get is calibrated differently at the 8.0 setting (I know of 3 so far that did show 7.5, including one I sent to Fredrik).

Here is the link on Amazon in the US for that driver:

Amazon product

If there are any torques you need for your setup that are not covered send me a PM with what you need and I'll get them to you. Also while some torques make a bigger difference musically than others I consider them all important. It is when you get everything really right with the LP12 setup that it truly sings and makes you want to dance to the music. Also when it comes to torques close is not enough. As the saying goes "Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and first dates!" It definitely doesn't count in torque settings on Hi-Fi equipment. There are even a very few places where the optimum torque is a half notch - which is less than one hundredth of a Nm!

you are seriously an international treasure.
 

sktn77a

Audio Dinosaur
Wammer
Nov 11, 2014
1,164
1,101
148
NC, USA
AKA
Keith
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Makes sense that the bottom cap of the Karousel should be tighter than the top attachment nut. Not sure why the original spec was 2.5Nm (?)

Oh and, as Tom says, the correct terminology is "notches". When you adjust the notches on mine, it also "clicks"! ;)
 

Forum statistics

Threads
113,444
Messages
2,451,263
Members
70,783
Latest member
reg66

Latest Articles

Wammers Online

No members online now.