Please explain PRaT.

[chebby]

I have only ever met two ‘pitch perfect’ musicians (both classically trained to a very high level, one on violin and the other on piano) and they were both aghast at the price of my hi-fi (about £700 - £800 in 1980s money).

Both were happy listening to cheap, plastic portable radios, cheap car stereo and generic branded ‘Walkmans’.

The only object one of them was impressed by was my Sony Walkman Pro until he found out it cost over £200.

 

[chebby]

As for ‘toe tapping’ ... who does that?

 I tap my feet and would find it strange to just tap my toes.

 

[bigrod]

As for ‘toe tapping’ ... who does that?

 I tap my feet and would find it strange to just tap my toes.

If you were tapping your whole foot surely that is jumping..

You cannot tap your whole foot because that includes your arches and they dont touch the floor ..unless you have flat feet of course..

What we actually do is tap the ball of the foot and toes.by rocking from the heel..

Kindest regards Julian 

 

[bigrod]

I have only ever met two ‘pitch perfect’ musicians (both classically trained to a very high level, one on violin and the other on piano) and they were both aghast at the price of my hi-fi (about £700 - £800 in 1980s money).

Both were happy listening to cheap, plastic portable radios, cheap car stereo and generic branded ‘Walkmans’.

The only object one of them was impressed by was my Sony Walkman Pro until he found out it cost over £200.

They are used to listening to the real thing....always live..

Anything else whatever the cost is secondary..

But I would guess after long careers they may indulge....

Kindest regards Julian 

 

[tIANcI]

Big question is ...Is PRaT measurable? Or just ...

I remember when Hartke came out with their ‘transient attack’ aluminium bass driver cones many many years ago. Other top brand manufacturers till today are still not using it.

 

[Nearly bewildered]

I always thought a prat was someone with no social graces..who showed themselves up all the time and didn't care or realise it! Now if that prat bought some naim kit ( how much! Good bragging rights lol) then the the prat would then be listening to some prat..then the prat would be less of a prat as they are listening to naim! 

 

[MartinC]

Big question is ...Is PRaT measurable? Or just ...

Sure. You attach an accelerometer to a listener's foot to measure how much it moves...

(Things like pitch accuracy and impulse response are obviously measurable but as always there is the gulf between being able to measure something and interpreting what someone might enjoy most. I will say that pitch accuracy for digital playback is easily so accurate to not be of any concern though, since I'm sure it far exceeds the accuracy to which musical instruments are tuned.)

 

[dave]

Big question is ...Is PRaT measurable?

I would say it should be, by some one like me, but it would probably need several things to be measured and then a result generated. The Prat-o-meter? But my software skills aren't up to that much and I am not in the AES either.

 

[tIANcI]

Ok ok ... how does one talk about PRaT when review rooms are all so different. One man’s PRaT may be another man’s TWaT.

 

[2010*zuma]

Dictionary/Google definition/meaning: prat

A prat is somebody who spends all their time and money on trying to listen out for perceivable differences they think they may or may not hear by adding new and sometimes expensive components, loom products or mind bending adjustments/upgrades of electrical sometimes battery powered hifi products that he or she may have extensively researched from expert industry profiteers or fellow hifi online nutters. ; )



Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[kernow]

Timing for me is rhythmic coherence. What gives musicality and what's very important to me. Like with pitch everyone is more sensitive to it. Some of us will hear few ms differences in timing as much as some will hear few pts in pitch.

I don't think it is marketing bollocks at all. There are brands that engage more and others that put me to sleep. It often may be to lack of Pace not necessarily Timing.

'Musicality'

If there was ever a more vaccuous, unmeasurable, meaningless term in hifi. 

 

[kernow]

It is certainly a matter of nuture..us older enthusiasts who first heard music on systems in the 60s "hear" differently to new enthusiasts because we have a much bigger frame of reference...my late uncle taught me how to "listen" to music not the equipment...

Can you separate individual musicians/singers but still retain the coherence of the music..

Can you position individuals within a performance..are they all playing with the same timing.and pitch...that's why we have conductors and leaders of orchestras..  and why they practice intensively for each performance..

Probably not, because your ears are old 

 

[Nearly bewildered]

Dictionary/Google definition/meaning: prat

A prat is somebody who spends all their time and money on trying to listen out for perceivable differences they think they may or may not hear by adding new and sometimes expensive components, loom products or mind bending adjustments/upgrades of electrical sometimes battery powered hifi products that he or she may have extensively researched from expert industry profiteers or fellow hifi online nutters. ; )



Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
 

No...your describing us hifi buffs! We spend money on bits of kit..knowing full well that our hearing isn't what it was!  Lol..but what else would we do with our spare money? Give it to the kids to buy more bloody video games?  or the missus to re decorate a room that's perfectly fine as it is?  We dont have much to look forward to..faffing about with bits of hifi and bickering in forums..that's about it! Us poor hifi buffs..so maligned..so misunderstood.. So misinthropic!!  

 

[rdale]

Probably not, because your ears are old 

That might affect our (eg over 60s) ability to hear extreme treble, but not timing and ‘jump factor’. My Klipschs and single ended valve amp combo have certainly got that and are a lot more fun to listen to the other more plodding systems.

 

[insider9]

'Musicality'

If there was ever a more vaccuous, unmeasurable, meaningless term in hifi. 

There are tests that can measure how sensitive individual is to timing. Just as much as pitch. Have a look here

It is very measurable. When these tests were free, sadly not anymore. I could reliably tell 2ms difference and 5ms 100% of the time. 

When you consider equipment ability to reproduce transients that 5ms difference between snare and cymbal hit is all that's needed for me not to perceive musicality. 

 

[MartinC]

When you consider equipment ability to reproduce transients that 5ms difference between snare and cymbal hit is all that's needed for me not to perceive musicality. 

I may have misunderstood but I'm not sure where in the hifi chain you think a 5 ms timing error between two sounds in a recording like that could occur? 5 ms is a HUGE difference.

 

[insider9]

It is. My point is people perceive it differently. 2ms timing difference which I can also reliabily tell, just not at 100% rate, is after all 70cm difference between speakers/drivers. Put inability of system to reproduce everything as it should and musicality suffers. You probably need under 1ms differences to not feel the groove. 

 

[Tony_J]

I may have misunderstood but I'm not sure where in the hifi chain you think a 5 ms timing error between two sounds in a recording like that could occur? 5 ms is a HUGE difference.

Indeed - I have a considerable problem with that. Speed of sound = 343M/s, so if we are talking differences in physical alignment between drivers in a multi-way speaker, 5 milisecs equates to a difference in path length of 1.715 Metres. That's one strange looking speaker cabinet.

You could create such a delay between two drivers using DSP, no doubt, but why would you?

 

[kernow]

Musicality is not measurable, doesn't exist.

What are the units? Musiclets? 

It's nonsense 

 

[Tony_J]

What are the units? Musiclets? 

PRaTs, natch