Thoughts on a new system

[Pianoman]

Hi all - I've been following a few threads now for some days and can't resist making a first post to ask advice. This is mainly because I got zip from the Hifi mags when I emailed them, and there's basically no-one else round here who's really interested.

Thing is this. I've moved house and am now detached (YES) and have a decent sized room (20' x 12'). I've only really ever had budget set ups and the current one has done me for a few years. It is - Sony CDP-XB900E/ Rotel RA 971 Mk 2/ Kef Q55.2. It does most things OK but now I can turn the wick up when the family's out, I begin to hear deficiencies, mainly hardening and congestion in the upper end. Over the years I've mainly done 'serious' listening through my Stax cans - SRD-7SB Mk 2, great detail and transparency, which the speakers can't replicate.

So far, so good. Now, we have two dealers about 50 yards apart here in sunny Huddersfield and, needless to say, they're recommending what they sell - fair enough. Up to press, I've only talked to them rather than listened, but I've told them what I listen to (mainly classical, big orchestral stuff, opera, piano, some jazz) and that I need air and detail over whopping bass. Dealer 1 is recommending Audiolab CD and matching amp with Spendor S5e - I have a mate with the smaller Spendors and he's very happy. Dealer 2 is recommending Exposure CD and amp with Neat speakers (can't remember model). These setups are only based on talking to them, as well as budget considerations - both in the 2k plus area - so what I'm really asking you experienced guys is -waddya think? If I can book demos with a little fore -knowledge I might be in a better position to judge. I know dealer 2 will let me demo at home - which could be a clincher - but is there any of my current set up which could be saved, re-used with new stuff etc? I can't resist thinking back to the thread about the matrix blind listening, where the cheap stuff sounded as good as the dear, though I noticed them using decent ATCs for both. Does this mean my cheap amp and Cd will sound better if I get really good speakers and new cable, or should I match up properly from scratch? I don't really want to go down the second hand route at the moment, as much as it will save me money, mainly because of lack of demos, distance etc. The 2k is also pretty much top end of the budget, for now...

Any thoughts, opinions would be very welcome

Tony

 

[Matt J]

I'm not sure either of those suggested rigs would suit your listening tastes, by all means they wouldnt make a bad job of it, bu tI think they would be more suited to up beat/tempo rock/pop/dance etc...

£2k is a nice wedge, I cant suggest individual kit as I dont know what excel's with you taste in music, all I can say from experience is spend as much on speakers as you can!!

 

[meninblack]

I wouldn't worry about the CDP or cables at this stage. Find speakers that work well in your room and an amp with enough muscle to drive them. IME big-scale classical at realistic volumes needs loads of power.

Welcome to the tent, BTW.

 

[dudywoxer]

welcome to the madhouse, err sorry, welcome to the tent. I have recently aquired a pair of spendor S5e's, am thoroughly enjoying them. They have air and space for sure, they also have a sense of integration, drive and timing that is pretty good as well. They are not quite as quick as the Rega r3's that they have replaced, but they do most other things much better. They should given the price difference.

If you are happy to keep the Sony CD player for now, can I suggest, given your musical preferences that you try a take you CD with you to a dealers, and have a listen to the Sugden A21 series 2 with the spendors, thats your money gone though.

I could not really suggest the audiolab stuff as I have allways found it to be a bit thin sounding for my taste.

Another suggestion I have to make, being one of the tents resident rega fans, is if you want to change your full system that you find a rega dealer who stocks a few brands of speakers, and have a listen to the apollo CD player which is oneof the best£500 CDplayers around at the moment, and Mira 3 amp. I can vouch for how the Rega's blend with the spendorson band and Jazz. The apollo and Mira are about £1100 in total. A bit of haggling and the Rega's and spendors should be achievable.

If you want to hear what the sound like away from the dealers. I'm not a million miles away from Huddersfield- I use a saturn, cursa/exon into the spendors, and although a bit up the Rega food chain the family sound is still present, pm me.

The neats have a following in the tent, and I can understand why, but orchestral stuff may not be their thing. What other speakers does the exposure dealer sell, as their range of CD's and Amps could also be what you are looking for, it's all about your ears, and room at the end of the day.

 

[enbee23]

This might not be quite the advice you were expecting or wanting but there are three items in the WigWam classifieds right now that would give you what you're after and be WELL within budget. Also, at those prices you won't have depreciation issues. Worth a punt and would probably be at least as good as the suggested systems you mention.

CDP

Amp

Speakers

BTW, I've nowt to do with any of them although I do own a pair of those speakers.

BUGGER. Just re-read your original post and spotted the "not 2nd hand" bit. Ah well, never mind.

Edited cos I can't bloody read.

 

[JANDL100]

Hi Pianoman & welcome to the tent !

I'm a classical fan with a 20x12 ft room too.

Sadly, I wouldn't go with either of your nearby dealers. Pain in the butt, I know, but neither seem to be saying (or selling) sensible things for you.

Audiolab is a bit thin sounding and Neat/Exposure are great for rock fans, but not for us classical bods, IMO, all a bit inyerface for our more delicate classical sensibilities !

Spendors can be great, but for me they lack a little in midrange resolution and, well, excitement. I like my classical with a bit of pizzazz, if you prefer a more relaxed sound though, then Spendors may be just the ticket.

So, what would I do? £2k, new. Hmmm .... Proac speakers, valve amp, Beresford DAC (£100)with a DVD player (£20-£30 from your local supermarket) as CD transport (and it'll will play DVDs too!).

What valve amp? Hmmm ..... I'd go forone of those great-vfmChinese jobbies, £500 tops. So let's see - you then have well over a grand to spend on some nice Proac speakers, stands, cables. Hard to beat the clarity and openness and low colouration of Proacs, IMO.

Anyway, I think that's what I would do.

EDIT: Actually, you could keep your Sony CDP - as long as it's got a digital output socket (preferably co-ax) then that'll be fine with the Beresford DAC.

 

[JamPal]

Welcome to the Tent.

I agree with Jandl100 (Jerry) in that neither of your dealer seem to have understood the brief. However, of the two; Exposure and Neat will make for a great system. But I would be bold enough to suggest that it might work better for contemporary music. Depends which Neats they are suggesting i suppose. That said, I would definitely audition the Exposure and Neat combo and see how it works for you. For me I wouldn't go near Audiolab.

If you are going for a CD front end then the biggest part of your budget should go on speakers. These will realize the most benefits from a few extra quid. Then get an amp with enough grunt to add some drama and scale to the orchestra whilst keeping those speaker cones well in hand. Go for a budget CD player for now, you might upgrade it later. Don't worry about cables yet. Just make sure they are nice and thick and well shielded.

Speaker wise, get in the car and try and hear some Spendors, Triangles, Neats and Dynaudio's.

Remember to match the sensitivity of the speaker to the amp. Lower the sensitivity (db/w) the more watts you need from the amp.

 

[The Strat]

Hi Pianoman - welcome to Wigwam.

I don't know your CDP but would have thought there are others out there that would be more musical so I think you should think about changing - sorry if this contradicts what others have said but I am definately of the view that CDPs make a very considerable difference. Can you get to listen to a Rega Apollo because me thinks that within your budget would make hell of a difference. Others worth considering are Arcam 192 or 93 (2nd hand make very good purchases if you could do it).

Amps - Exposure Ionly know by reputation but must worth be worth considering. Again a Arcam A80 or 90 would work nicely - some people interpret Arcams neutral sound as bland - you judge! - or a Naim Nait 5i. Some say Naim doesn't do classical imo nonsense - Beethoven/Bach/Mozart soar out of our system.

Speakers - I've heard various Spendors - love them very musical. Neats haven't heard but by reputation again very good. Ditto the recommendation elsewhere that Rega are worth listening to. Finally if the Dyn Contour 1.1s are still for sale on here you could gamble on those imo - superb boxes or if you get a punchy enough amp 1.3s.

Hope this helps but properly just confused.

 

[Alex A]

Definately sort your amp/speaker combo first as per MIB. I think a Sugden A21a and a pair of ProAc speakers would fit the bill very nicely indeed.

 

[JANDL100]

Alex_A wrote:

I think a Sugden A21a and a pair of ProAc speakers would fit the bill very nicely indeed.

Yup, following on from my previous post where I strongly recommended Proac, the Sugden ampwould go well with them.

... Especially with a Beresford DAC !

 

[Sheva]

I'd at least listen to the 2 systems you've mentioned, no-one's forcing you to buy one or the other. Exposure and Audiolab have completely different presentations, and at least you may be able to decide which one you have a preference for so that we can make better recommendations.

As regards Audiolab, a lot of people round here don't like it, saying it's thin etc, i understand what they mean, i've got it and it sounds incredibly stark with some speakers, however, if you stick some neutral-warm ones on the front of it, there's no problem really. Depends on whether you like a really clean sound, or prefer lots of harmonic richness. If you listen to both the setups you've identified, you'll at least have a much better idea of which direction to go in.

 

[Matt J]

JANDL100 wrote:

What valve amp? Hmmm ..... I'd go forone of those great-vfmChinese jobbies, £500 tops.

I'd be weary about suggesting one of them to a realtive new comer, I've heard a few of them and they arent anything special, granted I bet some of them are good and worth the cash but whether pianoman wants to be trying multiple £500 amps from china and face the prospect of having to sell it on if he doesnt like it is down to him, but I'd steer clear.

theres plenty of UK based stuff within his budget that will be worth a listen.

I tried a pair of Stirling V2's last year and for vocals and instrument presentation they were untouchable at the price (£750 ish new) didnt go with them in the end as they lacked the bass I need for the music I listen to, but I would certainly give them a try if bass is not an issue. doug Stirling sent me a pair to try free of charge so its a good way to get a decent listen to them.

 

[Anthony]

Pianoman wrote:

I listen to mainly classical, big orchestral stuff, opera, piano, some jazz

Hello

lots of good advice above. Personally I'd keep the cdp for the moment and get a really nice amp/speaker combo. I feel they have much more impact on the overall sound of the system, and your cdp will sound so much better with better amp/speaker. You can always update the source in the future. And your current speaker cable and i/c could be kept or some decentcheap alternative should be fine (IMO)

given your musical tastes I think you should really try and hear some decent valve amps. For me a good valve amp has better tone, texture, and musicality than similarly priced SS amps, just more natural somehow. You may have to drive a bit further to hear them but you may find it's been well worth the extra time and effort.

Ones I've heard include World Designs, PrimaLuna(or thisLINK)and Pure Sound.

The World Designs are kits but the manufacturer can put them together for you at a small cost. I heard the KEL84 and it was very nice, especially considering the price. The 88VA is also supposed to sound good.

I used to own a PrimaLuna Prologue Two and changed it for a Pure Sound A30, which to my ears was clearly better.

Don't assume that more watts are better with valve amps, it's how they are produced, the circuit, the quality of the output transformers and lots of other things I don't understand. The 30W produced from my A30 are more powerful, better controlled and overall sounds much better than the 40W from the PrimaLuna I had.

Speakers that should work well with those include Revolver, Audionote and many others. Best look for something that is 8 ohms nominal (and doesn't drop below 4) and 88 db/w/m sensitivity minimum.

good luck

 

[Pianoman]

Thanks guys - some really worthwhile suggestions there. In fact, some of you are uncannily on the right track, as a couple of years ago I auditioned a couple of systems based around my existing CD player, and the best by far was a Sugden amp, the Eclipse, I think, which is no longer made, and a pair of Proac Tablettes, which at the time I'de never heard of.

Sugden seems to crop up regularly, and it's interesting that a friend of mine who shares similar musical tastes has the A21a and a matching cdp with Castle Howards. It's a big, warm sound but orchestral stuff sounds superb. Of course, one of his considerations was that Sugdens are made just down the road from us in Heckmondwike, a tiny little backstreet workshop. They came out to his house and sussed the room, offered a part ex on his old amp, have serviced this one etc so really top customer relations. Dealer 1 deals in them - and Proac - so that might be my first port of call. Interestingly, this dealer has since altered his opinion away from Audiolab and on to Quad with the Spendors, another decent suggestion, it would seem. Dealer 2 also does Dali speakers, which some of you seem fond of, but I don't want to mess them around too much if they're setting up equipment, warming it up etc. Hence wanting this neutral advice before booking auditions. Lots to mull over, and I may well take Dudywoxer up on his suggestion of a pressure-free listening session in Scunny.

I'm thinking of taking some solo piano on ECM, real demo standard recording, and maybe the Verdi Requiem, with its big choir, solo voices, orchestra and those bass drum thwacks. Should show me what the system is made of.

best

Tony

 

[epca]

Pianoman,

Welcome to the tent.

There are a few classical music listeners in the tent and there are a few recurrent themes in the kit that we own.

Triangle speakers - wonderfully beguiling midrange and very extended highs (beware though if the speakersare not runin as they might sound harsh at first) and to paraphrase some reviewers 'exceptional powers of communication'. Lovely for lieder, chamber music, opera, well I think it is just about made for classical music. Would recommend you stick to their floorstanders which start at about 600 new IIRC for the Heliade although I would have thought you would get better scale from the Altea or the Antal. Distributors are UKD (http://www.ukd.co.uk/), or maybe someone from the Wam near you has a pair you might be able to hear. Metal Tweeters withpaper cone drivers

Proac 1SC - Boxer and I have a pair (and a few other folk I can't remember, sorry guys). A small standmount with a lovelyaffinitywith piano music, lovely midrange again and goes startlingly low fora standmount. A bit more reserved compared to the Triangles but it is more of a matter of a different presentation rather than one being better than the other. Fabric tweeter with transparent plastic cone. I don't know what price they are new, but if you manage to audition one you can always then pick a second hand one up. about 700 to 850 second hand.

Class A or Class A sounding amplification or valves. Sugdens are a good bet, the current A21a series 2 or the one previous; mainly neutral with just a bit of sweetness, but lots of clarity and dynamics. They do need to be auditioned with your choice of speaker due to their relative low outputs. Will happily drive the Proac and Spendors mentioned by others, but in my experience less happy with Triangles. The A21SE may bedifferent due to a different design and higher output, but you would blow your whole budget on it.

I use a Unison Research Unico with the Triangles. The Unico is a hybrid valve/solid state amplifier and find that this has the requisite power to drive the Triangles and play to the strength of the speakers. Again distributed by UKD. They are under a grand new I think.

I have been playing with a pair of Spendor S8e's and a pair of vintage SP1's for the last couple of monthsand I like very much what I hear. The SP1's are in the classic BBC monitor tradition but improve on the original BC1 in bass handling. Again majoring on midrange clarity and female vocals. The S8e's are quite stunning in their even-handedness and balance, everything in proportion to each other. So I would also wholly endorse Spendors. Fabric tweeters with plastic/polymer cones.

Other thoughts:

You might eventually consider getting a CD player with SACD capability since quite a lot of classical music is being released on this format and the sonic gains in some cases are quite significant (thinking RCA's living stereo series, Mercury Living Presence, Pentatone).

Echoing other's advice, I would concentrate on upgrading the speakers, then the amp and leave the cd player for later. Sony's CD players aren't a bad lot, and although your particular player was marked down by HIFI World for it's lack of involvement it was commended on soundstage and clarity.

You might also try to make it to some of the upcoming bakeoffs where you would be able to listen to a wide variety of kit, independent of dealers.

All the best in your search

Ed

 

[jonjin]

Another vote for the ProAcs... plenty of air, space and detail. Bass is amazing for a box that size...

As for amps, I beg to differ regarding valves. You'd probably want something more linear. Getting valves to work with classical at the low-mid budget is tricky. KT88s tend to be more aggressive. EL84s somewhat sweeter... therefore I'd stick to solid state. Can't think of one of the top of my head atm.

And it's very important to demo both the amp and speaker together!

JJ

(listens to alot of classical though 300Bs and LV)

 

[enjoy_the_music]

Yes...Proac Response 2.5's...older model but lovely. Amazing sound and warmth for the box size.

Mate Proac's with tube amps, after all that's what the designer use's to voice them. 10Watts is enough with these....Sugden also a nice match.

Classical needs proper tone, dynamic swing and good bass.

 

[chilohm]

I have just set up a great sounding system within your budget for classical listening in a small room. You could spend more on speakers and a bigger amp, but I am very impressed so far. It is very open, clean and well balanced with a surprisingly nice mid-range. My setup is listed below, but I would suggest you give Richard a call at NVA if you're interested in his stuff. He really helped me to choose the best amp/pre for my needs.

My setup:

NVA P90 Passive pre

NVA A30 Power amp

Dynaudio Audience 40 speakers

Sony dvpns900v qs DVD/SACD player

Pure 701 DAB radio

Beresford DAC

NVA soundpipe interconnects

NVA LS1 speaker cable

Beresford digital coax cables

Good luck.

Jack.

 

[The Strat]

chilohm wrote:

I have just set up a great sounding system within your budget for classical listening in a small room. You could spend more on speakers and a bigger amp, but I am very impressed so far. It is very open, clean and well balanced with a surprisingly nice mid-range. My setup is listed below, but I would suggest you give Richard a call at NVA if you're interested in his stuff. He really helped me to choose the best amp/pre for my needs.My setup:

NVA P90 Passive pre

NVA A30 Power amp

Dynaudio Audience 40 speakers

Sony dvpns900v qs DVD/SACD player

Pure 701 DAB radio

Beresford DAC

NVA soundpipe interconnects

NVA LS1 speaker cable

Beresford digital coax cables

Good luck.

Jack.

I haven't heard the Beresford but if Pianoman has some SACDs that's really good solution.