What can music preferences tell us about our system

Phobic

Mildly Annoying
Wammer Plus
Aug 29, 2020
3,450
3,066
0
Worksop
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I've made some minor changes for the better to my system over the past few weeks, and as a result I've noticed that Electronic music in particular has benefited the most, as a result I'm listening to more and more of it.

I've had improvements to rock as well, but not by nearly as much.1 thing I need to do is rerun Linn's sound optimisation algorithm (this is a non-DSP frequency tweaking solution). I suspect this might help bring better benefits to rock, we'll see.

I'm thinking that people prefer different types of systems characteristics if they like rock versus classical, so I'm wondering idly if there are any speculative conclusions that might be drawn?

I wouldn't normally bother to comment on this, but the preference is very strong and clear, and while I do like electronic music, I find I'm enjoying it disproportionately to my normal listening habits (not a bad thing maybe?).  

 
  • Like
Reactions: PeteT59

PeteT59

Newbie
Wammer
Jul 20, 2020
243
218
63
Brighton
AKA
Pete
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I've made some minor changes for the better to my system over the past few weeks, and as a result I've noticed that Electronic music in particular has benefited the most, as a result I'm listening to more and more of it.
I've had improvements to rock as well, but not by nearly as much.1 thing I need to do is rerun Linn's sound optimisation algorithm (this is a non-DSP frequency tweaking solution). I suspect this might help bring better benefits to rock, we'll see.
I'm thinking that people prefer different types of systems characteristics if they like rock versus classical, so I'm wondering idly if there are any speculative conclusions that might be drawn?
I wouldn't normally bother to comment on this, but the preference is very strong and clear, and while I do like electronic music, I find I'm enjoying it disproportionately to my normal listening habits (not a bad thing maybe?).  
How long is it since the changes.?

I wonder if over time you re-adjust and revert to your 'normal' listening habits?

I must admit that having also made changes to my system recently, I've probably been listening to more jazz than before, will it last.?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

 

vinyl4ever

Mr
Wammer Plus
Mar 29, 2020
1,055
1
580
183
60
Doncaster
primevehiclelogistics.com
AKA
Stewart
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I would agree wholeheartedly to this. Classical music in my opinion is relatively light in the bass dept and therefore if thats your preferred music of choice then you will naturally tweak your system to improve any perceived flaws.
Listen to rock or such like and the bass and guitars will likely be very dominant so again being able to control that will be uppermost in the listeners mind

Stewart

 

Phobic

Mildly Annoying
Wammer Plus
Aug 29, 2020
3,450
3,066
0
Worksop
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
How long is it since the changes.?

I wonder if over time you re-adjust and revert to your 'normal' listening habits?

I must admit that having also made changes to my system recently, I've probably been listening to more jazz than before, will it last.?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
 
It started about 4 weeks+ ago, but it seems to be becoming more pronounced with each minor change I make.

I can pinpoint the characteristic which is driving it as well, I've gradually tightened up the bass and have create more clarity/detail across the range.

It's even evident when I play something like Led Zeppelin IV versus Queen it's a kind of magic, the overall sounds on it's a kind of magic has benefited much more compared to Led Zep.

I don't think time is going to change things - I know with Sound Optimisation I can make thing a little less detailed and warmer sounding, however that's the opposite of where I think my preference is.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

tuga

. . .
Wammer
Aug 17, 2007
14,342
7,000
173
Oxen's ford, UK
AKA
Ricardo
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I'll repeat what I wrote in The ‘end game’? topic:

People practice audiophilia for a multitude of reasons: some like vintage equipment, others crave for the latest gear, some are tweakers and DIY'ers while others are brand addicts, some like rock, some electronic, others prefer jazz or classical, some like analog others digital, tubes or transistors, some are tech savvy and have a more rational approach while a few more will go at it in a mostly subjective manner, some are well-off while many suffer from budget constraints... On top of this, a large number of audiophiles will probably shift their objectives back and forth throughout their lives.

The construction of an audio (or recorded music playback) system is a personal journey, guided by our own objectives and our tastes (in both music and in sonic presentation).

My path has combined the possible experimentation with some research on technical documentation and reading accounts of a few select individual experiences.
The development of my system has been growing towards an approach that is driven by two major concepts: "transparency" (measureable faithfulness to the recorded signal) and "naturalness" (audible "realism").
I find that to achieve musical expressiveness and sonic realism one must first get as much information from the support as we possible can.

My sonic objectives are governed by the music genre which I appreciate the most, classical, with a special emphasis on symphonic music of the Romantic period, piano (solo or in concert), cello (accompanied by piano or the orchestra) and also some music with vocal content (opera and songs). I also listen to some jazz and ethnic/traditional, and a bit of alternative & rock (though mostly as background). I have a strong dislike for commercial pop, rap, electronic and ambiance music.

From an audiophile point of view, the advantage of employing classical (acoustic music played in spaces with natural reverberation) is that it can be used as a sonic reference in the evaluation of equipment, systems and recordings; it usually benefits from careful recording and mastering, unlike most studio recordings that only "exist" as they exit the mixer and are meastered with excessive loudness, compression and clipping, or in the amplified concerts where the sound heard by the audience is a "reproduction" of what was captured by the microphones or the table, amplified to absurd levels and transduced by PA systems that do not have fidelity but loudness as their main objective.
Moreover, the sonic and musical complexity, the wide frequency band, the wide dynamic range, the variety of timbres and sound sources of classical music and the venue ambience cues provide a particularly demanding challenge both to its recording and subsequent reproduction in a domestic environment.

Having "natural" playback of classical music as a goal, I expect my system to reproduce recordings with the highest possible fidelity and to achieve this it is necessary to choose equipment topologies that offer the greatest potential and to seek the maximum technical excellence in each of them (within my budget, of course).

Ideally this would mean a frequency response covering the whole range of human hearing (20-20,000Hz), a dynamic range limited only by the recording and the listening room background noise, with negligible amounts of the various distortions, in such a way as to allow the "clarity" and the transient response needed to produce sounds as "naturally" as possible.
But if on the one hand this technical excellence implies an absolute "respect" for signal integrity, I am also aware that the whole system (from recording to playback) is imperfect and that it requires a certain degree of customization/compromise in order to achive a more "musical" result.
I find that this is best done at the end of the chain (speakers) by adjusting frequency response and dispersion but I would also like to experiment with "euphonic distortion" at some point (amplification).

Regarding the sources I am of the opinion that this equipment should be as transparent as possible in order to extract the maximum amount of information from the support whilst contaminating the signal as little as possible with any type of distortion.
This means that a single recording reproduced from CD or vinyl should only be distinguished by the "colourations" or distortions inherent in each of the systems (media and reading equipment).

The amplification should follow the same principle of "transparency" in its function of increasing the amplitude of the signal coming from the source, being able to power the speakers to which it is connected (which implies sufficient headroom to respond to transients and low impedance of output in order to prevent any influence from the load produced by the speakers, which varies according to frequency) and the power supply must be adequately sized and effective in filtering the "impurities" of the electric current (the power amplification modulates the intensity of the electric current of in accordance with the audio signal).

All electronic circuits should be guided by simplicity (k.i.s.s.) and use the components that present the best characteristics / technical performance.

As for transduction, unless I win the lottery I will be sticking to front radiation speakers.
Here's a summary listing of some characteristics that I consider indispensable for a good performance:
• The case should have a wide baffle to avoid "discontinuities" in the response at the mid / mid-high level (baffle step) where the ear is most sensitive, a construction that allows control of resonances and standing waves and edges rounded or bevelled to reduce diffraction
• a minimum of 3 ways in order to reduce intermodulation distortion and make use each of driver within it's optimal passband
• frequency response should be flat on-axis and smooth off-axis to ensure a balanced tone in the room
• large (or medium-sized pair) of low-frequency drivers in sealed compartment for better transient response
• the material used in the diaphragm of the speakers should not produce audible distortions at break-up (whether paper, carbon, kevlar, ceramic, aluminium, polypropylene or bextrene, any material introduces a "colouration" of its own and I think it is not It is inappropriate to associate the tonality of this "coloration" with the material in question)

.

As others have written, I am also happy with my current system and easily could live with it to old age. But there are aspect of performance that I know can be improved, some are more important than others. The most important one – room – will hopefully be addressed when I move in August.

My DAC is the weakest link in my system and will be replaced in the near future, though a move in August to a larger house may allow the return to larger speakers with better sub-bass performance than that of my current pair.
I am quite happy with my current amplifier.

To use a automotive analogy, I see my system as a race car; the highest performance car will produce the fastest lap, the highest performance system will achieve the highest fidelity or "transparency". If I were to race on a Grand Touring cup and didn't have budget constraints I'd buy a Ferrari or a McLaren but unfortunatelly I can only afford a Lotus or a BMW...

 

DomT

Food and coffee and rock n roll
Wammer Plus
Jul 23, 2019
10,323
9,588
198
Village near Nottingham.
AKA
Dom
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
My listening tastes depend on mood rather than a system as mine has to do everything to a good degree. The music is always first and I can’t imagine a system dictating what I listen to; I suspect that you are listening to the system more than the music.

If I only listened to classical music then it’s faintly possible that I might change something and likewise if I was only into electronic music. But I literally listen to everything and the system also has to work for films and TV. 

 
  • Upvote
Reactions: Strider

bigrod

Super Wammer .. Pussy 🐈 lover
Wammer
Mar 12, 2013
5,971
8,896
193
D H LAWRENCE TOWN
AKA
Julian
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Having been into music for more than 50 years I have enjoyed all genre as each decade has come and gone and have tried to put components together that portray all music well but with an emphasis on being fabulous with trumpets and saxophone of the big band and early  jazz.. And precise vocal articulation.with lots of stable bottom end .which is why the single axis alignment of the TC 23 mid and H.F. units sounds like real brass instruments and true vocal rendition ...the whole unit “eyeball” can also be orientated above the upward facing 12” driver to get exact coherence in relation to room dynamics...

kindest regards Julian
 

 

Phobic

Mildly Annoying
Wammer Plus
Aug 29, 2020
3,450
3,066
0
Worksop
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
@tuga Very eloquently written and I think intuitively that neutrality is the direction I'm heading in.

I think my question is subtly different though and might be re-written as I'm trying to achieve neutrality, this kind of music sounds better, how might I use that as a diagnostic tool to help me achieve better neutrality. I've given tweaking SO profiles as a potential example of what I'm going to do.

@DomT my mood drives the music I listen to as well, it's just that I'm more included to pick Brian Eno when I want to chill out, or Chemical brothers when I want something lively, previously (for the past 15 years?!) I'd be more inclined to go for Keith Jarrett Klon concert and black sabbath respectively.

 

DomT

Food and coffee and rock n roll
Wammer Plus
Jul 23, 2019
10,323
9,588
198
Village near Nottingham.
AKA
Dom
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
@tuga Very eloquently written and I think intuitively that neutrality is the direction I'm heading in.

I think my question is subtly different though and might be re-written as I'm trying to achieve neutrality, this kind of music sounds better, how might I use that as a diagnostic tool to help me achieve better neutrality. I've given tweaking SO profiles as a potential example of what I'm going to do.

@DomT my mood drives the music I listen to as well, it's just that I'm more included to pick Brian Eno when I want to chill out, or Chemical brothers when I want something lively, previously (for the past 15 years?!) I'd be more inclined to go for Keith Jarrett Klon concert and black sabbath respectively.
Have you changed your drugs recently? Are you sure it’s the HiFi?

 

Camverton

Wammer
Wammer
Jul 20, 2009
4,621
2,155
158
Herefordshire
AKA
Malcolm
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Interesting topic. I suppose my system might indicate that I listen to small scale classical music where it is conceivable that the performers could fit in my room. That being so I want a system that, if I close my eyes, sounds as though the performers are there, in three dimensions, in front of me. Fortunately it also sounds pretty good for other genres but if I was into studio created electronic music I might have gone for something like Dutch and Dutch with added sub.

I take the point that vinyl4ever made about bass and classical music. It is certainly less continuously dominant but when it does appear it is vital and so I would always want a speaker that is flat down to at least 30Hz or have an added sub.

 

oldius

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 30, 2008
6,937
5,963
158
Liverpool
AKA
Geoff
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
My experience is that many veer away from the pursuit of 'hifi' as they move further into the hobby: many find that neutrality does not make for an enjoyable listen with a wide range of material as it ruthlessly exposes failings in the recording, pressing or mastering. Others make the same move but by modifying their software choices so that they only really listen to well recorded material.

I listen to an eclectic mix but I have not yet lost the desire to hear 'everything that's there'. It does mean that some stuff sounds shite but, of course, with the pain comes the greatest of pleasure.

 

tuga

. . .
Wammer
Aug 17, 2007
14,342
7,000
173
Oxen's ford, UK
AKA
Ricardo
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
My experience is that many veer away from the pursuit of 'hifi' as they move further into the hobby: many find that neutrality does not make for an enjoyable listen with a wide range of material as it ruthlessly exposes failings in the recording, pressing or mastering. Others make the same move but by modifying their software choices so that they only really listen to well recorded material.
I believe that in many cases what people describe as "too-detailed" or "too-revealing" is not a matter of character but the result of distortion. And a "neutral" or higher-fidelity system is impartial, not too much and not too little, it can't possibly be "ruthless".

Causes of distortion are hard to pin down and we audiophiles usually struggle to attribute the right cause to a problem we've identified in our listening assessments.

In my experience the best, most "neutral" systems will produce the highest level of detail yet this will happen in an unforced manner, subtly and with smoothness. They won't sound tiring, not when played loud nor after a 12-hour listening session.

 
  • Like
Reactions: uzzy

oldius

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 30, 2008
6,937
5,963
158
Liverpool
AKA
Geoff
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
I believe that in many cases what people describe as "too-detailed" or "too-revealing" is not a matter of character but the result of distortion. And a "neutral" or higher-fidelity system is impartial, not too much and not too little, it can't possibly be "ruthless".

Causes of distortion are hard to pin down and we audiophiles usually struggle to attribute the right cause to a problem we've identified in our listening assessments.

In my experience the best, most "neutral" systems will produce the highest level of detail yet this will happen in an unforced manner, subtly and with smoothness. They won't sound tiring, not when played loud nor after a 12-hour listening session.
I would agree were it not for the software element. A neutral system will reveal what is on the disc and a poor recording will show as that. Many audiophiles introduce distortion as it pleases their ears; valve amps are a prime example.

 

tuga

. . .
Wammer
Aug 17, 2007
14,342
7,000
173
Oxen's ford, UK
AKA
Ricardo
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I would agree were it not for the software element. A neutral system will reveal what is on the disc and a poor recording will show as that. Many audiophiles introduce distortion as it pleases their ears; valve amps are a prime example.
I see the adding of euphonic distortion more as a form of remastering recordings.

But often people are pursuing EQ either through cables, speakers or electronics to mask a problem elsewhere in the system; and the problem is that two wrongs don't make a right.

.

In my experience, higher-fidelity systems will not flatter bad recordings but those bad-sounding recordings won't sound any more unpleasent than through a "voiced" system.

But I have sometimes observed is that the musical scantiness of some records or types of music become unbearably obvious, for example stuff that one of my kids listens to which sounds edible in the car or iPhone speaker - even he recognises that. In a way the system is educating one's taste. It's a snob system. :D

 
Last edited by a moderator:

oldius

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 30, 2008
6,937
5,963
158
Liverpool
AKA
Geoff
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
I see the adding of euphonic distortion more as a form of remastering recordings.

But often people are pursuing EQ either through cables, speakers or electronics to mask a problem elsewhere in the system; and the problem is that two wrongs don't make a right.

.

In my experience, higher-fidelity systems will not flatter bad recordings but those bad-sounding recordings won't sound any more unpleasent than through a "voiced" system.

But I have sometimes observed is that the musical scantiness of some records or types of music become unbearably obvious, for example stuff that one of my kids listens to which sounds edible in the car or iPhone speaker - even he recognises that. In a way the system is educating one's taste. It's a snob system. :D
What you are saying is, in my opinion, not possible.

A system that adds distortion will not reproduce what is on the disc accurately. I am not critical of that approach as you have to enjoy your own system and what it does for your own ears. A neutral system will reproduce what is on the disc and if what is on the disc is terribly recorded then that is what a neutral system will reveal.

 

Phobic

Mildly Annoying
Wammer Plus
Aug 29, 2020
3,450
3,066
0
Worksop
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
A system that adds distortion will not reproduce what is on the disc accurately. I am not critical of that approach as you have to enjoy your own system and what it does for your own ears. A neutral system will reproduce what is on the disc and if what is on the disc is terribly recorded then that is what a neutral system will reveal.
so does that mean a system with distortion can make a bad recording sound better? what does that same system do to a good recording? surely is a balancing act and trade off?

with a neutral system you are still making a similar trade off, though I'd argue that I you can still enjoy bad recordings on a neutral system

 
  • Like
Reactions: oldius

oldius

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 30, 2008
6,937
5,963
158
Liverpool
AKA
Geoff
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
so does that mean a system with distortion can make a bad recording sound better? what does that same system do to a good recording? surely is a balancing act and trade off?

with a neutral system you are still making a similar trade off, though I'd argue that I you can still enjoy bad recordings on a neutral system
A system with added distortion can soften the sound, yes, and make poorer recordings sound 'listenable'. We are talking about a particular type of distortion that brings ( to my ears) an overly warm sound.

You can definitely still enjoy poor recordings on a neutral system if your goal is simply hearing the music as it was recorded.  

 
  • Like
Reactions: Phobic

tuga

. . .
Wammer
Aug 17, 2007
14,342
7,000
173
Oxen's ford, UK
AKA
Ricardo
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
so does that mean a system with distortion can make a bad recording sound better? what does that same system do to a good recording? surely is a balancing act and trade off?

with a neutral system you are still making a similar trade off, though I'd argue that I you can still enjoy bad recordings on a neutral system
That's

so does that mean a system with distortion can make a bad recording sound better? what does that same system do to a good recording? surely is a balancing act and trade off?

with a neutral system you are still making a similar trade off, though I'd argue that I you can still enjoy bad recordings on a neutral system
That's what I was trying to say. And also that many often associate "neutral" or "transparent" to "ruthless"-sounding but those systems in question are not really "neutral" or "transparent".

An example is @George 47's former pair of Wilsons which he bought as being "neutral" or "transparent", which they aren't, because that's how the press sells them.

.

A "neutral" or "transparent" system will play louder without distortion and provide many listening hours without fatigue, in spite of or because of the higher fidelidity.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Phobic

tuga

. . .
Wammer
Aug 17, 2007
14,342
7,000
173
Oxen's ford, UK
AKA
Ricardo
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
A system with added distortion can soften the sound, yes, and make poorer recordings sound 'listenable'. We are talking about a particular type of distortion that brings ( to my ears) an overly warm sound.
One way to do it is to use speakers or equipment which rolls the top end. F.ex. AN electronics and speakers.

Harmonic distortion will sometimes add a sense of "warmth" and enhanced "3D-ness", a bit like reverb. F.ex. AN electronic equipment.

Low output-impedance in amplifiers will make them slaves of the partnering speakers' load vs. frequency. Trying such amplifiers with different speakers produces sometimes significant differences in tonal balance, with speakers which would otherwise sound tonally similar with a "normal" amplifier. F.ex. AN SETs.

Little or no toe-in in most speakers will also produce treble roll-off and produce a more enveloping sound with a wider "soundstage", particularly if positioned clase to the side walls.

.

And then there we have those fancy power cables... :minikev:

 

Forum statistics

Threads
113,444
Messages
2,451,263
Members
70,783
Latest member
reg66

Latest Articles