Is a good DAC a waste just for Spotify?

[cdg]

My view, which I know many disagree with, is that an external DAC is wasted with ANY digital source, as whatever's provided with the kit is good enough for transparency.I accept that if you want to change the sound (note, not improve it, just change it) then an external DAC may do that, but then so will tone controls.

S.

You shouldn't buy a more expensive DAC to use as a tone control, you should buy a better DAC if it improves the musical timing, noticeably improves the sound stage, makes voice more intelligible, allows you to hear more into the performance - if it can do all the latter - then that has nothing to do with adjusting the tone and more to do with having a better DAC. If you can hear these improvements, then there's more to measurements than meets the ear.

 

[ThePrehistorian]

You shouldn't buy a more expensive DAC to use as a tone control, you should buy a better DAC if it improves the musical timing, noticeably improves the sound stage, makes voice more intelligible, allows you to hear more into the performance - if it can do all the latter - then that has nothing to do with adjusting the tone and more to do with having a better DAC. If you can hear these improvements, then there's more to measurements than meets the ear.

There is absolutely no way whatsoever, no way at all, that a DAC can 'improve the musical timing'. There are measurable differences between DACs, but we're talking about minuscule differences that very few people can detect aurally, and are usually completely inaudible. Anyone who thinks they can hear large, musically significant differences between DACs is simply mistaken.

 

[Jazid]

 

[SergeAuckland]

You shouldn't buy a more expensive DAC to use as a tone control, you should buy a better DAC if it improves the musical timing, noticeably improves the sound stage, makes voice more intelligible, allows you to hear more into the performance - if it can do all the latter - then that has nothing to do with adjusting the tone and more to do with having a better DAC. If you can hear these improvements, then there's more to measurements than meets the ear.

It's called imagination! ;-)

S.

 

[m@tty]

I use an Airport Express with its internal DAC with a 3.5mm to RCA cable that cost pennys direct to a power amp and get a lot of listening pleasure from it with no measurable reduction in listening pleasure from knowing it wasn't expensive..

 

[d_a_n1979]

I use an Airport Express with its internal DAC with a 3.5mm to RCA cable that cost pennys direct to a power amp and get a lot of listening pleasure from it with no measurable reduction in listening pleasure from knowing it wasn't expensive..

See; I'm going to do similar this week and connect my 2012 Mac Mini via a 3.5mm to RCA cable to my NAD amp and do the same ut using optical out via my Fiio D3 DAC into the NAD and see if I can tell if there's a sound difference etc.. Could be an interesting experiment!

 

[craigmclellan]

Chaps, it is that thing again of: You may prefer the sound of something because of the circuit surrounding the DAC chip. Preferring something because it is different is fine, but saying it is technically superior than something else is incorrect.

I prefer the sound of my NS1000Ms over mostly anything else I have listened to - I don't describe them as better than for example, Edd9000s KEF 105s, because they aren't, they're different. That is what you're actually arguing here.

The DAC in the Chromecast has been implemented correctly and works/sounds "adequately" as it should do. I can't hear any difference between it and the vastly more expensive, but older, DAC chip and its implementation in my DTC-60ES. I still run it through the DTC, because I like the flashing level meters on the front of it.

If you prefer the sound of another DAC, all power to you. Just don't expect 100% of the people you tell of your experience to agree. They will prefer something else.

 

[SergeAuckland]

See; I'm going to do similar this week and connect my 2012 Mac Mini via a 3.5mm to RCA cable to my NAD amp and do the same ut using optical out via my Fiio D3 DAC into the NAD and see if I can tell if there's a sound difference etc.. Could be an interesting experiment!

Do make sure that you level-match the two signals, as otherwise it'll be very difficult to do a fair comparison.

If you do it blind and level matched, it will definitely be interesting.

S

 

[d_a_n1979]

^^^

How do I do that Serge? All new to me etc

 

[craigmclellan]

Do make sure that you level-match the two signals, as otherwise it'll be very difficult to do a fair comparison.If you do it blind and level matched, it will definitely be interesting.

S

This is important.

"Louder" is usually always perceived as "better". When I am home alone and the neighbours aren't present, the volume control on my system could be labelled as the "Enjoyment" or "Better-er quality" knob. It takes quite a few dB of adjustment before a difference in actual level is really noticeable.

 

[Nagraboy]

This is important."Louder" is usually always perceived as "better". When I am home alone and the neighbours aren't present, the volume control on my system could be labelled as the "Enjoyment" or "Better-er quality" knob. It takes quite a few dB of adjustment before a difference in actual level is really noticeable.

Also our ears aren't linear with volume. Louder will sound subjectively bassier for example. That's why they used to put loudness buttons on amps, to give the effect of louder playback levels.

 

[SergeAuckland]

^^^How do I do that Serge? All new to me etc

Almost impossible without some instrumentation, but you can get away with using a multimeter, which can be bought from Maplins for around a tenner.

Play a steady tone from the source and measure the level coming out of the DAC and the level coming out of the Mac mini, and adjust the volume level so that the two match to within about 1%.

This assumes that the MAC mini's volume control for the analogue output doesn't also affect the digital output. If it does, then it's going to be a lot more complicated.

You can create steady tones using Audacity, or there are lots on YouTube that you just play. I suggest a frequency of somewhere between 300-700 Hz, but even 1 kHz should be OK. The accuracy of the multimeter will be poor, as it's designed to measure mains at 50 or 60Hz, but accuracy isn't important as what you're doing here is matching two levels, so whatever the inaccuracy is for one, it will be the same for the other.

Then, once the levels are matched, without touching the volume control(s) on the DAC or MAC, plug the MAC and DAC into two inputs on your amp. You need to make sure that both inputs have the same sensitivity, but normally two line inputs will have. Then listen to some music, getting someone else to switch between MAC and DAC without telling you which is which. Firstly, see if you can hear a difference, then try and state a preference.

I would then repeat the test using the amplifier inputs the other way round (MAC for DAC) just in case the amp does have slightly different sensitivities. See if you get the same results.

My expectation is that you won't reliably be able to hear any difference between MAC and DAC when listened to blind, even though you may have a clear preference when you know what you're listening to.

S.

 

[d_a_n1979]

Argh; that's given me a headache reading that and trying to understand it/how to do it!

I'll just give it all a listen to begin with and see what difference I can hear and will take it from there!

 

[SergeAuckland]

Argh; that's given me a headache reading that and trying to understand it/how to do it!I'll just give it all a listen to begin with and see what difference I can hear and will take it from there!

Proper blind, level matched testing is a pain to do, and it's one of the reasons it's rarely done. However, it's the only objective way I know of removing bias such that only audible differences are part of any choice. Anything else means that any choice is biased by knowing which source is which, and/or by volume differences masquerading as quality differences.

S

 

[d_a_n1979]

How's about I set the volume and listen to the same track via the DAC and then again via the 3.5mm to RCA cable and see if I can hear any disconcernable difference?!

That's about as simple & obvious as it gets, isn't it?!

 

[SergeAuckland]

How's about I set the volume and listen to the same track via the DAC and then again via the 3.5mm to RCA cable and see if I can hear any disconcernable difference?!That's about as simple & obvious as it gets, isn't it?!

Yes, but how will you know if the differences you hear are due to actual audio differences or just volume differences? Even a small difference in volume, imperceptible as a volume change, can give the impression of a quality difference.

S

 

[d_a_n1979]

Think I'll just listen and see which I deem to sound best; other than that, it's just too much like physics 101 for my liking!

 

[SergeAuckland]

Think I'll just listen and see which I deem to sound best; other than that, it's just too much like physics 101 for my liking!

HiFi IS physics. ;-)

S

 

[d_a_n1979]

Nope, it's a relaxing, entertaining and pleasurable!

 

[SergeAuckland]

Nope, it's a relaxing, entertaining and pleasurable!

So is Physics!

S