1st contact with Digital/demateriliazed music: advises needed

[Matt J]

What bitrate is AAC? I have various rates in my library but I wouldn't know which was which without going to have a look, a distorted guitar sounds like a distorted guitar, I can't hear any difference lol.

 

[smegger68]

There is some bad terminology used with regard to music files. MP3's, AAC's & the like are not actually compressed, they are decimated via a psycho-acoustic algorithm. FLAC files, though lossless, are actually compressed. You can see why this is a minefield....!

 

[rdale]

There is some bad terminology used with regard to music files. MP3's, AAC's & the like are not actually compressed, they are decimated via a psycho-acoustic algorithm. FLAC files, though lossless, are actually compressed. You can see why this is a minefield....!

I don't think the term "decimated via a psycho-acoustic algorithm" is in common use when discussing the MP3 and ACC codecs. The point of using them is to make the files smaller, and as far as I know there is no other reason to use them. So calling them 'lossy compression' techniques seems perfectly OK to me.

However, as you can get a 1Tb portable USB drive for about 70 pounds which will hold about 2500-3000 CDs in Apple Lossless or 1500 CDs in AIFF, it doesn't seem worth saving the space if you are going to use the tracks in a home HiFi system. Any music in Apple Lossless or AIFF can easily be transcoded to ACC using XLD or Max if you do need smaller AAC tracks for your iPods. I use Apple Lossless for my iPods and don't bother with MP3 or AAC at all - it just means less music fits on the iPods and you need to change it more often.

 

[vacdac]

:goodone:

Good commonsense post Richard! :^ ....Repped

I deliberately used the terms "lossy" & "bit perfect" to denote the main differences between Flac & mp3/AAC codecs & as you say the main reason for using lossy codecs is for space efficiency, particularly on portable devices where space is limited.

Although Flac is a compressed format it's true to say it's "bit perfect" as no information is lost/missing, it's just that it's packaged in a more space efficient way than WAV. Given that WAV is wasteful of space & it's known "Tagging" limitations, there's no real point in using it, as there won't be any SQ benefits over Flac & due to its tagging superiority Flac is more friendly for music streaming.

I do get the point of what James (Smegger) was getting at, but given Bouba's (OP) clear novice status re all this streaming/Audio codec malarkey, feel that adding such complicated terminology could be somewhat off putting.

BR

C.

I don't think the term "decimated via a psycho-acoustic algorithm" is in common use when discussing the MP3 and ACC codecs. The point of using them is to make the files smaller, and as far as I know there is no other reason to use them. So calling them 'lossy compression' techniques seems perfectly OK to me. However, as you can get a 1Tb portable USB drive for about 70 pounds which will hold about 2500-3000 CDs in Apple Lossless or 1500 CDs in AIFF, it doesn't seem worth saving the space if you are going to use the tracks in a home HiFi system. Any music in Apple Lossless or AIFF can easily be transcoded to ACC using XLD or Max if you do need smaller AAC tracks for your iPods. I use Apple Lossless for my iPods and don't bother with MP3 or AAC at all - it just means less music fits on the iPods and you need to change it more often.

 

[Muddy Funster]

What bitrate is AAC? I have various rates in my library but I wouldn't know which was which without going to have a look, a distorted guitar sounds like a distorted guitar, I can't hear any difference lol.

According to most tests, somewhere between 128kbps and 192kbps VBR (variable bit rate) AAC is considered transparent enough to the original file for most modern usage. Apple now supplies 256kbps VBR AAC files as standard on iTunes, and this file size is considered transparent to the original under almost all conditions.

In public conducted tests, I've found few people can robustly differentiate between AIFF and 256kbps VBR AAC on even a pretty good system. Through extremely good systems in good rooms, the ability to differentiate between AIFF and AAC becomes more reliable, with AAC being consistently described as having a more wavering 'watery' delivery in the upper-midrange and presence regions (2kHz-6kHz). You are most likely to hear this with vocals, especially vocals with some kind of boost around 3kHz (think Rick Rubin when he's doing 'moody' - Johnny Cash's American IV: The Man Comes Around, Neil Diamond's 12 Songs or the Avett Brothers' I and Love and You are good examples).

 

[Bouba]

Thx all for the explanations, vacdac in particular, I appreciate.

I spent some time yesterday browsing on the net, and now have a more precise idea of what can be done or not giving my constraints.

However, as you can get a 1Tb portable USB drive for about 70 pounds which will hold about 2500-3000 CDs in Apple Lossless or 1500 CDs in AIFF, it doesn't seem worth saving the space if you are going to use the tracks in a home HiFi system

I thought about this a little bit, the problem being how to get a "hi-fi" device capable to read information from a 1Tb portable drive, a dac certainly but which one?

I'll continue my research onto the net and have an appointment arranged for next week end with a top reseller in Lyon. I'll see what he tell me and what could be the option. But I didn't want to go there without not knowing at least a little bit on the subject. Thx for your help, cause thx to you, I managed to start with 2 different music libraries : one for my Ipod in AAC and the other in FLAC to allow listening through my hi-fi once I choose the right devices.

Thx

 

[Bouba]

Hey, guyz, an update about where I stand regarding my tribulations into "digital wonderland"

Took a trip to Lyon to a dealer to have some info about the question I have about whether going server + dac connection to my hifi system or going streamer+dac+ NAS server or other storage device to be able to play hi-rez audio files through my beloved stereo systems.

I had a chance to listen to different digital systems ranking from 600€ to K9€ among which a cambridge audio; MF Clic systems; Bryston (absolutely wonderful but really pricey; but what I heard worth every single cent !!!!)

Awaiting for raising enough funds to go for a full Leema digital system (whose Streamer is still expected to come in 13, since the first pre-production units have some bugs according to Lee's mail I get); I thought the Cambridge Audio Sonata NP30 system was the one I prefer as it has a budget price.

Unfortunately the very nice guy owning that shop didn't have any Sonata on stock or demo but had a Stream magic 6 instead which was fed through a Mac book pro and linked to cambridge own 841 power amp and pre if I do remind well its reference. Sounded fantastic to me.

The dealer assured me the sonata will have same sonorous signature even though it might have less poise, dynamic slame and precision.

He also told me that from the 2 options (server with inbuilt storage capacity or streamer with any outboard storage device) he would advice going for an external storage device - NAS server or USB hard disk with large capacity - connected to the little Sonata NP30 + a very good quality DAC, giving the limited budget.

But one thing he told me that was quite surprising to me was that I'd be able to connect a very ordinary USB and/or Ethernet hard disk drive to the Sonata NP30 streamer through either of these connections, and use it exactly same way as a NAS Server (which is best used if connected to the internet network as you confirmed it here): the Sonata NP30 would not require any pilots or drive of any kind to play the FLAC or WAV files I would have store onto the hard disk. The only constraints he precised was to choose one with at least 2 TB if I have many files.

Still, I would like someone who knows the Sonata NP30 to confirm please if that is possible: streaming direct FLAC files through any normal (not NAS) hard disk drive, directly with no needs of network connection neither specific pilots or external devices or adaptor.

If that is possible, then I might well just find the right solution to start my digital odissey: Sonata+ DAC MAGIC Plus to connect to my preamp, as a start, while waiting for the Leema streamer to build a full Leema system when funds allows it

 

[Matt J]

I've no experience of the Sonata, but from looking at it I would say trying to navigate your music via it's little screen might be a bit restrictive when connected directly to a USB drive.

 

[vacdac]

Hi again Bouba,

Yup the C.A. streamers you mention look good & if I was not already sorted for a streaming solution + Dac, that's prolly where I'd start looking. Re the forthcoming Leema streaming solution you're also considering. If I were you, I'd hold my powder on that one. Not just because they're at the pre-production stage & are ironing bugs out. Just based on my own experience with the SBT.....these days the S.W. for this tends to be rock solid & not at all buggy, however rewind a couple of years & SW patches/further updates being needed following a SW update was not so unusual.

Here's a link to Richer Sounds homepage here in the UK where you'll find the C.A. products you mention. (Main Stockists for C.A. products).

http://www.richersounds.com/products/multi-room/wireless-streaming?md5=422b22d355637149856e451b42429d7f#6

I'm not so sure that the Sonata NP30 & the Dacmagic+ is t' best allocation of funds either, as The newer Stream-magic 6 is better in terms of spec & essentially is a serious update of the NP30 & it is pretty much identical in terms of its Dac features/spec to the C.A. Dacmagic+ (Same upsampling to 24bit@384khz, which handily beats t' NP30) & the feature list is better all round including balanced XLR outputs & a greater range of digital inputs, for your other digital sources. Here in the UK the option you suggest would also be more expensive & as mentioned t' NP30 is longer in t' tooth too.

BR

C.

 

[Bouba]

Hey vac' thx for your reply.

Yes, I obviously tried to source a SBT brand new. Unfortunately it's sold out everywhere in France.

The newer Stream-magic 6 is better in terms of spec & essentially is a serious update of the NP30 & it is pretty much identical in terms of its Dac features

I agree, it's obviously seem better; but it is also more expensive.

So which brand would you advise me to go with ?

I would say trying to navigate your music via it's little screen might be a bit restrictive when connected directly to a USB drive.

True Matt, but would be very curious to see a network player with a big screen ?! :? All the ones I saw to date have similar small screens; including the sonata's big brother the stream magic; so as the MF, Leema, Naim and many others

 

[vacdac]

Yup Bouba, the Cambridge Audio Stream-magic 6 is the the more expensive of the two Cambridge audio units you mention. However you did say you were considering buying the NP30 & the dacmagic+ to use with it.

Essentially the more expensive Stream-magic 6 has the Dac you propose buying to partner the Sonata NP30 (Dacmagic +) built into it :^ , as I already mentioned in my previous post. Soon as you factor this in, the additional cost of t' stream-magic 6 compares rather differently. I'm basing this on UK pricing of course, I'm not sure if this will be different for you in France :dunno: , but over here it would be the cheaper option & indeed neater/less clutter too.

The screen thing mentioned by Matt is also something of a "Red Herring" IMV, as there are Android & i-pad/phone controller apps for the Cambridge Audio Streamers & you can do all the controlling/navigation using one of these devices from the comfort of your armchair in full technicolour glory for display of artwork etc. This is what I do with my SBT's & it's a very slick/responsive way of navigating your mooozic library & putting playlists together etc, using a phone or tablet.

Personally I'd be looking at the Cambridge Audio Stream-magic 6 over the NP30 if it fits your budget. All the others you mention are considerably more expensive than this even, & if you consider levelling the playing field by feeding the digital output from any of these streamers into a suitably capable Dac......well they're all just streamers at t' end of the day, so I can't see their being a "Gnats Chuff"* (*very little difference ) between any of them, with regards to SQ* (*Sound Quality)

 

[Ophidian]

Hi Bouba,

As several others have mentioned it is often possible to hear a clear difference between AAC or other lossy compression and lossless formats such as FLAC. In some cases using a good encoder and a high bitrate lossy compression can sound near indistinguishable from lossless formats but every recording compresses differently and the results are not guaranteed.

Using a lossless format such as FLAC guarantees that the playback will match the original recording and unless you have an absolutely vast music collection an average storage system with 1 or 2 TB of space will be enough for all your needs. I would highly recommend converting directly from your CD's to FLAC in this case.

In the not too distant future, lossy formats will be all but extinct simply down to the fact that cost effective storage space on all devices will outrun the requirements for storing large quantities of uncompressed or lossless compressed music.

Hope that helps!

 

[Matt J]

I didn't know the Cambridge stuff has it's own app, the review I read never mentioned it, claiming the screen wasn't very good for navigation :?

 

[vacdac]

Yup I believe there's been an app for t' Stream-magic 6 since it's release. Just goes to show that some reviewers simply can't be relied on to cover the basic facts. Pretty lazy/stupid & useless I'd say.......unless it's one of our regulars....errrmm in which case they were clearly havin' a bad day & there must have been obvious mitigating circumstances...a hamster ate it or summat & they did their best to re-submit to a v tight deadline. ;-)

I didn't know the Cambridge stuff has it's own app, the review I read never mentioned it, claiming the screen wasn't very good for navigation :?

 

[idektron]

Just save yourself the time and £££ I say and maybe just put the money towards buying more music... You'll just have the same situ in 10 years time when the latest format comes out. Just enjoy new music now !

 

[Bouba]

Hey vacdac, how u doin'

You're absolutely right Chris, yes the Stream magic 6 would be worthier choice over the DacMagic+ & sonata if Indeed the Stream magic 6 has already the same DAC built in

Essentially the more expensive Stream-magic 6 has the Dac you propose buying to partner the Sonata NP30 (Dacmagic +) built into it :^ , as I already mentioned in my previous post. Soon as you factor this in, the additional cost of t' stream-magic 6 compares rather differently. I'm basing this on UK pricing of course, I'm not sure if this will be different for you in France :dunno: , but over here it would be the cheaper option & indeed neater/less clutter too.

The screen thing mentioned by Matt is also something of a "Red Herring" IMV, as there are Android & i-pad/phone controller apps for the Cambridge Audio Streamers & you can do all the controlling/navigation using one of these devices from the comfort of your armchair in full technicolour glory for display of artwork etc. This is what I do with my SBT's & it's a very slick/responsive way of navigating your mooozic library & putting playlists together etc, using a phone or tablet.

Yes Chris, this is also right and saw it advertised onto the magic 6 specs, pretty attractive options;

And foremost the Cambridge streamer is the less expensive, including here in France I saw so far, the other ones I mentionned are all above 1100 €

 

[Bouba]

Hey Gareth, thx man for your reply. Re the transfer in FLAC of my music, it's already in progress (as precised, into this thread ;-) ) Indeed, I have riped all files through Itunes for the Ipod and through dbPoweramp in FLAC; but a little bit longy but on progress

Using a lossless format such as FLAC guarantees that the playback will match the original recording and unless you have an absolutely vast music collection an average storage system with 1 or 2 TB of space will be enough for all your needs. I would highly recommend converting directly from your CD's to FLAC in this case.

 

[Bouba]

Just save yourself the time and £££ I say and maybe just put the money towards buying more music... You'll just have the same situ in 10 years time when the latest format comes out. Just enjoy new music now !

Absolutely Ed (please allow me to call you Ed'), and I can tell you I never bought as many CDs as I've been buying for the past 2 months. Because I enjoy my system every time I turn it on.

But this should not be a reason to improve it's versatility, just searching for a simple way to enjoy my music more than just listening to the sound 'Cause after all It's all about music and emotions, not just about sound.

 

[vacdac]

Yup Bouba....All fine & Dandy here Fella & Thanks 4 askin' :hug:

If you check the upsampling specs for the Stream-magic & Dacmagic+ you'll see they both upsample to 24bit@384khz which is higher than their last generation Dacmagic which does 24bit @ 192khz. In terms of spec this reads the same as for their top of the line cd players the outgoing 840 model & t' newer 850 these are fairly well regarded by reviewers/users & retail at over £800.

If you do decide to consider it it's one less interconnect & digital cable too:^. So if you would have had to budget for these :dunno: , that represents a further saving. One less box would get my vote, if it 'aint needed & 3 less wires being needed only adds to the neatness of this solution. I think the Stream magic 6 is far more fully featured & offers more bells 'n whistles than the previous generation NP30 & as it's a second generation product from a sensible & well respected marque I'd expect it's a very well sorted product.

The pricier products you've mentioned whilst by no means bad products have not exactly set the streamer market alight over here. :nup: TBH it's hard to see what they offer over & above the Stream-magic as an all in one streaming solution....other than brand cachet/desirability. As already mentioned if you fed the digital outs from any of these players into a more capable Dac, I'd expect the playing field would be level.

I do still think the SBT & decent Dac is another good option, but the price would then be similar to the stream-magic & again means more boxes & wires.

Tatty byeee mate.

Chris ooooooooooooooot :fly:

Hey vacdac, how u doin' You're absolutely right Chris, yes the Stream magic 6 would be worthier choice over the DacMagic+ & sonata if Indeed the Stream magic 6 has already the same DAC built in

Yes Chris, this is also right and saw it advertised onto the magic 6 specs, pretty attractive options;

And foremost the Cambridge streamer is the less expensive, including here in France I saw so far, the other ones I mentionned are all above 1100 €

 

[Bouba]

Great explanation and good sense: yes I'd prefer go for a one box solution Chris, 'cause space is already limited here My AV rack is already 3/4 full of kits and the monoblocks I have are quite bulky.

Moreover, think it would made more sense to use the magic 6 also as a DAC and not only as streamer, connecting my current CDP to it and use the CA excellent Wolfson instead ? Could you confirm that makes sense Chris ?