A mystery. MQA on Qobuz

[TheFlash]

Ha, I think you misunderstood, or more likely I wasn’t clear enough! What I was trying to say what I can’t report on my experiences, because without a DAC that tells me something is MQA, how would I know?

I’ve forgotten what Tidal showed when I trialled it a couple of years back, but as a Qobuz user without an MQA-capable DAC I don’t think I would know which I was listening too - because nothing would inform me, not because I might not be able to tell. Using the OP’s example, my device says it’s 24bit, but not whether it’s MQA or not.

I use a Node2i. The app tells me what I’m listening to, format-wise. So I know whether I’m supposed to be unfolding or not, and can therefore hear (or can’t) a difference.
EDIT: on yours, Nick, it says it’s FLAC.
in Tidal, they distinguish Lossless (FLAC) from Master (MQA). Not sure about Qobuz where MQA is a rarity.

 

[TheFlash]

I did and could not tell the difference, even with an MQA DAC I can’t either. As you know the Node does the MQA unfold. Many MQA albums have been batch processed by the record company, all this about going to the original tapes is nonsense in many cases and the artist has not approved them according to some artists. Tidal I can switch quickly between Mqa and cd. Generally I prefer Qobuz HiRes. Not bothered really about the format, it’s the mastering or remastering that matters.

The Node2i DAC can do the MQA unfold but whether it does so is user-selectable.
I need a good night’s sleep before I work out whether it is the streamer bit or DAC bit of the Node2i which does the unfolding: I obviously use mine purely as a streamer.
EDIT: it’s the DAC bit. A user can decide to bypass the Node’s unfold to let an external DAC do it. https://support1.bluesound.com/hc/en-us/articles/115006191908-Why-Isn-t-My-External-DAC-Playing-MQA-

 

[Nopiano]

I use a Node2i. The app tells me what I’m listening to, format-wise. So I know whether I’m supposed to be unfolding or not, and can therefore hear (or can’t) a difference.
EDIT: on yours, Nick, it says it’s FLAC.
in Tidal, they distinguish Lossless (FLAC) from Master (MQA). Not sure about Qobuz where MQA is a rarity.

Yes, that’s my point. Using a DAC that doesn’t have MQA capability means one cannot be alerted to MQA encoding. Mine reports FLAC unless it’s something like Radio 4!

 

[TheFlash]

Yes, that’s my point. Using a DAC that doesn’t have MQA capability means one cannot be alerted to MQA encoding. Mine reports FLAC unless it’s something like Radio 4!

We appear to think we’re missing each other’s point… and we’re not, we’re disagreeing! I do not rely on my DAC to tell me anything other than sample rate; my BluOS control app does this perfectly well. So I have an MQA-incapable DAC but usually know when that DAC is being fed MQA or not. We do agree of course that the exception would be if Radio 4 sneaked it in!
Speak soon, my friend (we might need to if we’re still at cross-purposes to avoid any online tetchiness!)

 

[StingRay]

The Node2i DAC can do the MQA unfold but whether it does so is user-selectable.
I need a good night’s sleep before I work out whether it is the streamer bit or DAC bit of the Node2i which does the unfolding: I obviously use mine purely as a streamer.
EDIT: it’s the DAC bit. A user can decide to bypass the Node’s unfold to let an external DAC do it. https://support1.bluesound.com/hc/en-us/articles/115006191908-Why-Isn-t-My-External-DAC-Playing-MQA-

I see, I have the right setting for my DAC for Mqa external DAC, so I should be getting MQA but my DAC does not tell me what is streaming. On Tidal I can choose AA which is MQA, when available or cd.

lm curious to know why you have to select MQA ext. DAC if it bypasses the Node MQA process.

 

[TheFlash]

I see, I have the right setting for my DAC for Mqa external DAC, so I should be getting MQA but my DAC does not tell me what is streaming. On Tidal I can choose AA which is MQA, when available or cd.

lm curious to know why you have to select MQA ext. DAC if it bypasses the Node MQA process.

Someone will be along in a minute, I'm sure, to talk about first and second unfolds!

There does appear to be quite a bit of confusion. There is a Bluesound community thread about the Gustard DAC in this context but much might be more widely applicable. Scroll down to the post from 12m ago headed SOLVED.

 

[Lurch]

I believe the reason for selecting MQA output internal/external is because the Node will only output full unfolded MQA via its analogue outs. Therefore if you have an MQA capable dac (usually of superior performance to the Node internal DAC) you select external, so the Node only does either nothing or the 1st unfold, and your own better quality dac does the rest.

 

[StingRay]

Someone will be along in a minute, I'm sure, to talk about first and second unfolds!

There does appear to be quite a bit of confusion. There is a Bluesound community thread about the Gustard DAC in this context but much might be more widely applicable. Scroll down to the post from 12m ago headed SOLVED.

I read the Gustard post and it seems you need to disable the MQA DAC option on the Node:

“While this DAC is capable of fully decoding and rendering MQA, it can do so via USB. If this is fed with signal via coax or optical, in order to enjoy the hires quality of MQA, the first unfolding must be done by the source. In my case, it is a BS Node 2i which has an option to send raw signal (without any unfolding) to the DAC by enabling "MQA External DAC" option in the BluOS. However, when this option was on and transmitting the raw data to this DAC, the DAC wasn't able to fully process the data and incorrectly display the format as well as the sample rates of ALL songs that I was testing. Only when I turned off "MQA External DAC" option, the DAC was then able to pickup the signal and process it properly and display the format/sample rate correctly

I have confirmed this by turning off "MQA External DAC" in the settings of BluOS and while playing a MQA album showing the MQA logo with the green dot in BluOS, the Gustard X16 displayed the higher bit rate of the MQA recording that did not appear when I had "MQA External DAC" turned on. Now I am confident that a true MQA signal is being output to my amp.”

However that is because it needs the first unfold if using optical or coax. Not sure about my DAC. all very confusing and my Tidal sub has now finished.

If using Qobuz best to disable MQA setting on Node?

Edit: it seems my Soncoz DAC only can do MQA on usb input, unless first unfold is complete on source, this seems common on most DACs, so I’ve had my Node2 on the wrong setting, probably why I can’t hear any difference. Bluesound need to change their information.

 

[nomore landings]

Hi Stingray,

I am now confused. Played the 2L track via Qobuz in the node. The TEAC showed MQA and 352.8Khz - same as own streamer. BluOS said it’s own output was HD but no MQA as expected. Turned off MQA out in settings. Out put was now HD plus MQA green dot but not info regarding frequency. Sounded good direct to amp. Turned TEAC back on and still said coax2 MQA 352.8. Seems like coax from node outputs raw data MQA regardless of settings. Tried RP MQA and same result. I don’t use usb out but know it was enabled recently. The TEAC ud701n has all spdif and usb MQA enabled. The NT505 does not. Seems like the enable setting on the node just switches its own DAC MQA output on and off, but not the coax output. Confusing as you say. MQA out enabled: then not.

 

[rabski]

I would assume the Node will output whatever format the file is in. In other words, if it's an MQA file, the Node will output it as MQA, but if you've turned off MQA in the Node settings, it will not perform any of the 'unfold' steps.

The Node (and other streamers) I would assume are not able to convert one file type to another.

 

[StingRay]

I would assume the Node will output whatever format the file is in. In other words, if it's an MQA file, the Node will output it as MQA, but if you've turned off MQA in the Node settings, it will not perform any of the 'unfold' steps.

The Node (and other streamers) I would assume are not able to convert one file type to another.

Yes this it is to do with the MQA unfolds. If you set the node to external MQA DAC then no unfold is done but if you disable it will do the first unfold. The problem is most MQA DACs only work on usb input. This info is not that easy to find, I think MQA needs to provide more information on this. I thought my DAC did all the MQA conversion but apparently not, it needs the first unfold or usb input. My Tidal contract has finished now so I can’t compare. I will try this Qobuz Mqa album later. A bit annoying, wish I had known this a month ago.

 

[StingRay]

Hi Stingray,

I am now confused. Played the 2L track via Qobuz in the node. The TEAC showed MQA and 352.8Khz - same as own streamer. BluOS said it’s own output was HD but no MQA as expected. Turned off MQA out in settings. Out put was now HD plus MQA green dot but not info regarding frequency. Sounded good direct to amp. Turned TEAC back on and still said coax2 MQA 352.8. Seems like coax from node outputs raw data MQA regardless of settings. Tried RP MQA and same result. I don’t use usb out but know it was enabled recently. The TEAC ud701n has all spdif and usb MQA enabled. The NT505 does not. Seems like the enable setting on the node just switches its own DAC MQA output on and off, but not the coax output. Confusing as you say. MQA out enabled: then not.

Yes very confusing. Some MQA are just at cd resolution. I’m a bit confused with the Node unfolding MQA even if your DAC does not handle MQA, maybe that is why some people have reported worse sound on MQA.
MQA is a bit of a mess.

 

[TheFlash]

Seems like coax from node outputs raw data MQA regardless of settings. Tried RP MQA and same result. I don’t use usb out but know it was enabled recently.

Sorry, are you suggesting USB output has somehow been retro-enabled on the Node? Please point to info on same if so. I can’t imagine this being possible but it would open up a number of possibilities if so. Thanks

 

[nomore landings]

Sorry, are you suggesting USB output has somehow been retro-enabled on the Node? Please point to info on same if so. I can’t imagine this being possible but it would open up a number of possibilities if so. Thanks

Hi,
I have the Node130. USB out was enabled by firmware update a few months ago. It was promised at launch but took a while.
https://support1.bluesound.com/hc/e...879-How-to-enable-USB-Audio-Out-on-NODE-N130-

One of the reasons I went for the TEAC, apart from being very happy with the NT505 so knew a good bet, was that it’s 4 spdifs accept MQA. From my research, this is a rarity and most are limited to usb. The Luxman d03 and d10 x disc players also accept MQA via spdif into their DACs. Both are MQA cd machines, I guess aimed at the Japanese home market requirements. One of the Matrix DACs might or might not. Their specs were a little ambiguous To my ears, RP MQA is a delight. It only unfolds to 24/44.1. Perhaps it is the 24 bit that elevates it. I know not.

 

[Miller-8]

MQA is not really an issue either way, but only as long as either your DAC can do the 'unfold' or it can be done in the player software (the Tidal desktop app does so). The issue is if you get an MQA file (without any option of an alternative high-res version) and your DAC doesn't 'do' MQA.

To be honest, I swapped from Tidal to Qobuz primarily because the quality was either better or as good, the available music had caught up with what I wanted, and it was slightly cheaper. In terms of MQA (processed by the Tidal app) versus Qobuz hi-res, there was often less than a gnat's pube of difference to my ears.

That's not true. It isnt bit perfect in either case. It adds distortion.

 

[nomore landings]

That's not true. It isnt bit perfect in either case. It adds distortion.

Cannot argue from a technical point of view as I have insufficient education in such matters. However, from a subjective view, I hear no distortion whatsoever, even compared directly to SACD. My Dali’s hybrid soft dome and ribbon tweeters take no prisoners when fed rubbish.
my goal is the quality of the music reaching the ears. When that is achieved, the ins and outs of how it got there becomes immaterial. This thread was to highlight that Qobuz could surprisingly transmit MQA, not to generate yet another hate campaign.

 

[rabski]

Technically, MQA is worse than hi-res. In practice, as long as the original source file is good enough, I strongly suspect none of us would be able to tell the difference, provided the MQA had been properly processed.

To me, it's more about transparency (and not in the audio sense) and costs. I want to know what I'm getting, above all. With MQA, the whole thing seems vague in some ways.

 

[nomore landings]

Technically, MQA is worse than hi-res. In practice, as long as the original source file is good enough, I strongly suspect none of us would be able to tell the difference, provided the MQA had been properly processed.

To me, it's more about transparency (and not in the audio sense) and costs. I want to know what I'm getting, above all. With MQA, the whole thing seems vague in some ways.

there are many of us that have switched to Qobuz. Three years ago I found tidal fairly consistent within the normal variations of recordings etc. A more recent return via a cheap trial deal was disappointing. Radio Paradise stores it’s music files @ 24/96 on its servers. They allegedly hope to launch a high res stream, bandwidth permitting, and the MQA stream will probably be redundant. MQA CDs, although excellent sq, are novelty value only outside of Japan. MQA will probably disappear from my menu, but until then I am grateful that we can enjoy such fine quality music. The original CD PR marketing spin back in the early 80s was “ perfect sound, forever” It has taken a while to get even close. Happy Easter.

 

[rabski]

there are many of us that have switched to Qobuz. Three years ago I found tidal fairly consistent within the normal variations of recordings etc. A more recent return via a cheap trial deal was disappointing. Radio Paradise stores it’s music files @ 24/96 on its servers. They allegedly hope to launch a high res stream, bandwidth permitting, and the MQA stream will probably be redundant. MQA CDs, although excellent sq, are novelty value only outside of Japan. MQA will probably disappear from my menu, but until then I am grateful that we can enjoy such fine quality music. The original CD PR marketing spin back in the early 80s was “ perfect sound, forever” It has taken a while to get even close. Happy Easter.

Yup.

I was on Tidal for a fair while, as they had more of the music I wanted. The MQA didn't bother me either way, as I was using the desktop app and streaming from the computer. I moved to Qobuz primarily because it was cheaper and their range of available stuff seemed to have grown massively. Since then, I've shifted to using a Node, so the whole setup is different. Nevertheless, certainly no complaints about the quality.

 

[Miller-8]

MQA is dishonest marketing and I will avoid it.